Signed
I think it has nothing to do with sour grapes especially as I know that a lot of people in my breed that have champions have already signed it and the petition was put forward mainly because people with champions were looking for another class. I admit we are a numerically large breed so the quality issue to pick out cc winners isn't a problem. Now and then you get a dog come along that has a run for the year with tickets, therefore a lot of good dogs miss out for whatever reason. My breeder has one of these such dogs, second highest ticket winner ever and she has even supported the idea admitting a lot of good dogs went without their title because of it.
I'm not getting into faciness etc, because we all know that it goes on in every breed to some extent, my view is you either accept it and get on with it or find something else to do. I'm proud that I'm a noone and I've done alright. Will I make up a champion, I don't know but we'll wait and see

Not necessarily Pod, it seems that within the National qualification (eg Green Stars for Ireland) if it is not an International show, slightly different rules can apply.
At International shows, I have been told (but am unsure as to it's accuracy) that if the CACIB is awarded to an existing Int Champ, it goes to the next in line at a later date once the paperwork is sorted out. Assuming it was graded excellent of course!
According to a Hungarian judge I stewarded for, in Hungary for the National title, a dog only needs to get the requisite number of "Excellents" (ie Champ quality) to become a Champ, it's not competitive. Maybe I should take Deccy to Hungary!
Having a separate Champions class does not leave the way open for possibly lesser dogs coming up - Deccy only gets excellent about 50% of the time, he's had a few VG's and even one G - so he couldn't challenge anyway with those! We had one show where both bitch ticket & reserve were withheld as NO bitches got an excellent. It does allow "Champion quality" dogs to come through without being held back by a flyer who keeps coming out.
Interestingly, at the rate things are going here, most of the dog entry will be in the Champ class soon..... except poor Deccy who still needs to mature.

Ah that's interesting... thanks for explaining

I think this does confirm the importance of grading, even in the absence of a Ch class. It would be much 'easier' for a judge to withhold the CC if he/she had graded all dogs and not awarded any excellents in that sex. It wouldn't then be focussing on just the class winners as 'unworthy' ..... they would already know they were not eligible to challenge, rather than wait to the end of judging to find out.

I'm sure Deccy's time will come.... all the best dogs take time to mature

I would prefer a method of grading rather than 'competition' to be honest but I'm hoping this petition may make the KC sit up and listen (we can dream lol!)
In fact I think there should be a grading system for all dogs that are bred to ensure they are suitable.
Becky

Hmmm... my own view is that there are still too many dinosaurs in the UK KC who think that they are better than anyone else so they would never join the FCI as they would have to be answerable to another Country, and not one in "the Empire" lol. Why is Crufts the biggest dog show in the world? Because everywhere else you have to be a Champion to enter, well at least that is the case for the Westminster as I understand it, we have the World show here in 2009 and I expect the qualification criteria to be that as well. A third in one of many classes at any Champ show? How hard is that?? It's just a money maker IMO.
From Ireland to qualify for Crufts we now have to get the ticket at only ONE show designated in the year, or win Junior, or be a Champion, in line with other European (FCI) Countries. Mind you, we can make up an Int Champ without leaving Ireland, which UK resident dogs can't do any more so I suspect a small retaliation there!
I think, and no doubt someone will put me right, that in France a dog cannot have a pedigree until it has been assessed at a year old....... if it is deemed to be of sufficient merit, it gets registered... not sure how this works with showing puppies, perhaps someone can enlighten us.
The only snag with the grading system here is that judges, as ever, are inconsistent. How can Deccy get "excellent" and the Green Star one week, and only a "Good" the next? There is a well known top winning Dalmatian which was the first to achieve UK, Irish and International titles, the breed folklore will tell you that just after achieving this, he had a "Very Good" grading from an International show!

Because breed standards are open to interpretation and judging dogs is subjective Not everyone will see the same dog in the same way, and I, for one, am glad of that. How boring would it be if people all thought the same? The same dogs would get the same placings week after week! Plus, judges should judge the dog in front of them on the day and let's face it, any dog can look hideous one day and fab the next depending on their moods

Debs

When we showed there wasn't a dog my dog didn't beat.
I have signed .
I don't think it is sour grapes.
Chow

I think in France the system is that all dogs compete together and if a BOB is already a Champion then the award gets passed to the reserve. Not sure what happens after that though?

I personally do think that there needs to be changes made. What's the point of awarding CC's to dogs that are already Champs? What difference does it make? I really do think it's very, very difficult to make up a champ in this country and would welcome a rule change to prevent Champs from winning CC's for no reason.

Petition signed!

Hi Rip,

Yes it is difficult - and it should be! I see all my friends on the continent and in the States travelling round from country to country and state to state getting a million titles on dogs they'd struggle to get made up at all in the UK! If any of them manage to get an UK title on their I can assure you it means far more to them than any of the others.

I can't understand why people want to take that prestige away? I just don't want the title of Champion in the UK to become devalued - which it certainly would if the CC winner didn't have to beat all the best dogs.

Debs

The thing I hate is that there are dogs who beat all but the CC winner and have masses of RCC which means that if it wasn't for the CC winner then the judge considers that dog worthy of a CC. Moving champions out of the usual classes means that these dogs would get a chance to be an actual champion.
Maybe we need to encourage judges to with hold more frequently if the quality (or lack of it) dictates it?
Becky