Your dog should not be off lead around sheep. End of. It is irresponsible of you IMO and then to inflict a shock collar on it when it shouldn't even be off lead is just wrong IMO.

How can you say it worked without torment on the dog??? It worked because it hurt it.

You were lucky it didn't associate the pain with something else other than the sheep.

The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953
Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of 'livestock' includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included.

The Animals Act 1971
Civil liability arises from the Animals Act 1971. Anyone who is the keeper of a dog that causes damage by killing or injuring livestock is liable for the damage caused. For the purposes of the Act the keeper is the owner or the person in possession of the dog. The head of the household is liable where the owner is under the age of 16.

The keeper of the dog is not liable where the damage is due wholly to the fault of the person suffering it or if the livestock were killed or injured on land onto which they had strayed and either the dog belonged to the occupier or its presence was authorised by the occupier.

Under the Act there is a defence available to someone who is the subject of civil proceedings for killing or injuring a dog that was worrying or about to worry livestock. The defence can be used where there were no other means of ending or preventing the worrying or where the dog that had done the worrying was still in the vicinity and not under control and there were no practicable means of establishing ownership.

The definition of livestock in the 1971 Act is wider than in the 1953Act. Here it includes pheasants, partridges and grouse whilst in captivity.

Taken from this link..
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welf...estic/dogs.htm

Basically, your dog just needs to look like it might be upsetting anything in the field and it is a dead dog, it's ONLY protection is to have it on a lead...it could be within 6 feet of a pregnant ewe and the farmer has every right to shoot it as the ewe could abort.

Your dog should be onlead around livestock for it's own safety and the safety of the animals around it.

WE ARE NOT IN A FIELD WE ARE ON PUBLIC LAND! Dartmoor is common land on which farms graze their livestock. Livestock graze in the military firing areas and roam free across the moor, often being killed by cars as there are no fences or bounderies to restrain them.

Obviously, anyone who takes their dog onto farmers land without having it under control is irresponsible. This however is not the case in my situation as, and I will say it one more time as it is obviously not sinking in, I am not on farmers land! (Would you like me to say that again or have you got it now?)

I am fully aware of the law in relation to dogs and livestock and appologise for the use of caps but please read my post correctly before making comments based on emotive interpritations of the facts.

Mo I am not saying you are lying only stateing facts about the remote trainers, the human damaged the dog not the collar !

And I am not blind and am literate thankyou. Did you actually read what I posted??? The section on the 1971 law? Doesn't matter if it is common land, you can be done for it....

You wrote
Basically, your dog just needs to look like it might be upsetting anything in the field and it is a dead dog, it's ONLY protection is to have it on a lead...it could be within 6 feet of a pregnant ewe and the farmer has every right to shoot it as the ewe could abort.

I was pointing I am not in a field and my dog is in full control thanks to the shock collar.
Also I was not lucky that it associate it with the sheep as its all about timing not just randomly shocking the dog. hence it only took two shock for it not to chase them again.

can I ask have you ever felt the shock from a shock collar?

Thats ok then, the livestock won`t be afraid so long as they are on common land, presumably they know the difference between being on common land and not farm land, eh ?

How about you wear the collar and I`ll press the button, no speaking allowed by you and I`ll give vague gobbledygook commands for you to adhere to, as thats all words are to dogs until they have learned to associate the sounds to actions, lets see how many zaps you tolerate until you`ve figured out and then learned whatever I decide you have to do on command...

No the sheep are not afraid as they roam free all there lives and are used to seeing people and dogs you can get fairly close and they will sit there and look at you walking past.
You still haven't answered my question. Have you felt the shock I used with the collar?
I didn't use a word I just used the action of chassing sheep with the shock from the collar, seeing as I only had to do it twice on the lowest setting. The shock from the collar broke his mind set of the chase for my to then give him the leave command followed by the come. Which I had taught him with reward based training.
Seeing as you haven't used one and by your above comments you don't have a clue how they work.

ETA
I have tried the collar on myself after all I wasn't going to put it on my dog without knowing how it felt so has my 9 year old son and my husband.

No you were lucky....as you pressed the button a bird could have flown into view, a child could have suddenly approached, you are not in control of all factors, no matter how much you try or believe that you are.

Here we go the old...have you felt it though? If you'd felt it you wouldn't say all this stuff.
Well yes, I have felt it.
Not that I actually think that it is important as my perception of it is different, I knew it was coming. The sensory world I live in is also very different to a dog's who relies mainly on smell and hearing, rather than sight. The way a dog would perceive it is very different to the way a human, who has the knowledge that the pain is coming and why it is happening...so it is totally irrelevant whether someone has felt the shock of a collar or not.

You do not have total control over your dog, it is very arrogant of you to suggest that you do. Your dog is an independant,sentient being and therefore for you to suggest you have 'total' control is almost farcical. Your dog may have a good recall,that's great, but it is wise to remember that your recall is only as good as the one that it does next...and that can NEVER be relied upon TOTALLY. Only when we lost my old BC could I say that throughout the whole of his 10 years his recall was 99% taking account of his puppy 'hellos'....
The only way to know that your dog is secure and have it under almost total control is if it is on a lead....even then the control isn't total as it is open to human error and equipment failure...and the dog's indepnedance of thought.

Your dog can still be shot on common land and I suspect it would be YOU that would be done if it went to court.

As for the sheep being used to people and dogs...that's great that you also know the working of the minds of sheep....especially protective pregnant ewes.



That's nice for them....you must have fun in your house. As I say...totally different when it's on it's lowest setting and you know it's coming and why...'ha ha ha like that hurt.....' actually, yes it did and would have been worse if it came as a 'shock'

So you must never let your dog off the lead then as you have to have control in a public place and on your basis you say that it never in total control unless on the lead. So where do you walk your dog?

I was in the middle of the moor there were no children or birds. He has seen enough grass granite rock and gause bush to know it wasn't them.

We are never going to agree on this
But my dog is not going to be shot by walk to heal near sheep. I have lived here all my life and had several dogs not one has nearly been shot end of.
Anyway this is way off topic as you seemed to want to pick a fight with me.
The OP was do you think smacking is worse than a e collar.
Yes I do, I' don't think is nice for anyone to see someone get angry and lash out at them. So I wouldn't do it to my dog but I would shock it with the collar if it meant it qualily of life would be improved.