Adam ~ the people & websites you say have influenced your methods & extol the use of shock collars are USA dog "trainers", & usually ex police or armed forces. Have you actually studied under them? Do you know what qualifications & experience they have, (other than whatever claims they might make on a website)? If your use of shock collars comes from, or has been influenced by reading these websites, then that is an extremely dangerous thing for you to do.

I'm with the others who support the methods used by David Ryan. Here's a person with a proper scientific understanding of learning theory, who takes into account all the other factors that influence behaviour (& doesn't just rely on OC principles as if these are the be all & end all of all behaviour problems) and clearly has huge peer respect. If someone like that says that shock collars are harmful, detrimental etc, then I would far rather believe that person than these spurious claims on websites that cannot be independently verified & clearly lack any scientific knowledge of dogs & learning theory.

I, and many others on this forum, have quoted, referred to & provided links to articles, papers, books etc from well-respected & qualified animal behaviourists ~ all showing the harm that shock collars & punishment based methods have on animals. Despite this overwhelming evidence, people like Adam still insist that shock collars are the way to go. I am flabbergasted that people who purport to care for the welfare of dogs & other animals, are still using pain & fear to train dogs.

Plenty of experienced animal trainers have successfully taught lions, tigers, dolphins etc to perform certain behaviours without having to resort to using punishment.
I'd like to see the the shock collar users let loose with a lion or tiger & then say that shock collars work!!!!

Lou Casstle is ex police. The dobbs were/are gundog trainers but were the first people to develop e collar training, they then branched out into other fields such as obedience ect.
The diamond kennell is a breeder, whos been running a training business for about 20 years and using e collars for as long as they've been available, I believe they specilise in aggression issues.

I believe their qualificatiobns are practical experience and success with their dogs/clients dogs.

[name removed] is good but if the dog has little interest in a toy, and you can't make it stronger (which in some cases you can't) the toy won't work on its own. He uses spray collars as well (which are more aversive to some dogs than e collars) but some dogs will ignore them.

WW. While the DC guy is very pushy with his opinions (which I respect) he's not the influence I'm talking about. The aversive of no treat stuff I'm referremg to has been discussed for many years in certain dog circles. The reward based world denies it because they are trying to present as anti aversive however it does exist.

Adam

which do you respect adam?

the DC guys opinions or the DC guys pushiness with his opinions?

as, unlike yourself, he is very rude

..i ask again Adam.. can u not train without an e-collar?

why on earth would you use one on a 6month old puppy?

I respect his committment to his belief system. I think e collar trainers could sometimes be more polite as it would help people accept them (though I'm not sure thats worked for me lol). However I imagine if there had been dog forums 50 yrs ago the few reward based trainers would have been in the same position as I am.

Tupac

Done loads of cases without e collars. However for soem stuff they are needed/huge advantage.

Re the puppy (I think you meant to reply on the off lead thread) 6 months is a good age as the pup is mentally mature and usually starting to get to the point were you are no longer the centre of its world. Of course you can leave it until later but what if issues develop (recall is very common problem from 6 months onwards) in the meantime.
Some trainers do start earlier, either using the vibrate function of a certain brand or using the lowest/very adjustable levels of the brand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us0HXngmdYc, stim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aWO0ZAjh5Q, pager

Adam

Adam ~ whatever I think of your dog training methods & however much I might criticise your use of e-collars, I can certainly say that you are polite & courteous in your posts ~ & in the face of a lot of provocation.

It would just be great if you could see that the use of e-collars is wrong, harmful & unnecessary.

So is it OK to torture rescued dogs if you`re well brought up then?

Yes, supposedly but his behaviour is so appalling it's amazing he was ever a cop. I just find it incredible. And worrying
Well, he's had I think it was a success rate of about 97% and then after that he will use a specially conditioned spray collar He again is an ex police - but not just a dog handler, an instructor too. For many years, so he's also done the "other" kind of training and moved on, like many of us

Ok (shock trainers? or others?) but there seems to be no evidence. I've only ever seen it from DC and it seems to stem from him, unless he got it from somewhere else. Thing is though Adam, when you refer to current thinking it has to really be scientific if it's about OC -has to be. If its not then it can't stand up. As Bob Bailey said, and said well, we cannot know how a dog feels when the titbit is in the pocket, we can only guess and until we can read the minds of animals, we can only count observable behaviour. You can't go against this.

I think you'll find that reward trainers agree they use negative punishment BUT not that the dog expecting the food or waiting for it when it's in the pocket or bum bag is that. See above.

Also see here:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/positive_reinforcement

The dog can be expecting but not getting, the treat, if it is withheld deliberately during training as a consequence - and that is negative punishment, yes, as we've always said anyway - but just saying that having the treat in the pocket and not giving them is not to my mind, nor to BBs mind, the same thing. It's this latter that people such as DC have tried to claim.

Wys
x

I'll stick my two penneth in now. Where my Mum used to live she would see a man out walking with a young and bouncy GSD male. The dog pulled on the lead and bounced on other dogs, trying to play but short of manners. The owner decided to get an e collar and would give his dog what he called 'both barrels' when the dog was being overly silly. One of the times the dog had jumped on my Mum's border collie Lottie and the owner zapped it and Lottie yelped and was terrified of the dog after that event. The dog went from being an exuberant pup who just needed some training and time to mature to being a nervous flinchy wreck in a matter of weeks. My Mum told him she would not be walking with him unless he took the collar off the dog, but he refused. This is the kind of idiot who buys these tools. That dog got shocked on full power for behaving like a puppy.

Disgusting IMO and the sooner they are banned the better.

WW, I learned about the aversive belief of withholding the treat from an obedience instructor. I've heard it discussed in schnutzand circles and in other working dogs circles.
I don't know were the DC guy gets it from but he certainly wasn't the first person I heard it from.

Loki's Mum

Removing the e collar will simply cause the owner to handle the dog in another bad way. So instead of stimming he'd whack the dog with the lead for example.
I've worked cases were the owners approach to handling the dog has been very rough/almost abusive and have introduced the e collar as a softer alternative, the difference is astonishing. What the BCs owner lacked was education.

Adam