No, certainly not for gundogs, which is what I know. All I know about working sheepdogs is from farmers around where I have lived. Certainly the ones around here seem to be out a lot, and even if they're not being worked, they are on the back of a quad bike.

Gundogs, during the shooting season, I personally, have been beating up to 5 days a week from November through to the end of January so they are out a lot. At the end of the season, they have a break and then it's back to normality, but that does involve exercising them, training them.

I imagine a lot of gundogs are kept in their kennels for long periods of time as certainly, a keepers job is very busy at times. A keeper is unlikely to keep a dog in his kennel that won't settle, so would not breed from that dog, so unlikely to get a "highwired" dog. I imagine in days gone by, they would have been culled but now, it is a case of selling/giving to a pet home.

To think that gundogs are working 24/7 is wrong as no one needs a gundog to work for that length of time.

I know which one I would prefer to work

Helen

Does it matter whether or not a collie without the collie drive is still a real collie, as long as it is in a happy home where the owners can fully provide for it. Seems much better to me than a real collie in a pet home where the owners are stressed out with it's behaviour and the collie is terrorising the neighbour hood with barking, lunging, nipping, circling or what ever else.
I do think that people should research the breed much more than they do, and that they should be prepared to fulfil any dogs needs, but that said they don't and nothing is being done to make them so why not make dogs to suit them. Isn't that how all the different breeds came about in the first place?

I speak for our own collies when I say they do spend a good proportion of their day out and about - not always working, but with my hubby while he does his jobs. They also get "regular" walks morning and evening with my gang. At certain times of year they are used an awful lot (Apr-Jan) and for long periods each day, but at other times (Feb-Apr) they are not required as often (as sheep are in lamb) and so will spend their time just out and about in the landrover, on the quad, training or on their kennels relaxing.

The gundogs on the estate where I live seem to spend a lot of their time in their kennels outwith the shooting season. During the season they are out regularly - up to 5 days a week (like this week) but out of shooting season they aren't worked at all as such, but are obviously let out for exercise and training.

I do know what you are saying, but should people take more responsibility for their choices? Should breeders be more responsible in what type of homes they sell their dogs to? Will the people who end up with a cracked collie or a manic spaniel, even take proper care to fulfil the needs of a dog with less drive and energy?

Yes, all people who own or breed dogs should be prepared to spend more time thinking, researching and doing the things that we all agree makes a good breeder a good breeder and a good owner a good owner. That doesn't mean that they will. If you can't change the people then doesn't it make sense to change the dog they can have?

I fully agree that in an ideal world that only responsible breeders and owners should have dogs, but that is not the world we live in and I honestly cannot see that changing.

My parents for as much as I love them are not suited to own the black lab they have, he has more brains and energy than them put together so he is slowly becoming more manic and having more problems. Is that their fault for owning him when they don't understand or want to see the truth or the rescues fault for letting them have him?

I suppose another problem I can see is that there are already pet strains of all the popular breeds and yet the unsuitable owner/type of home still goes for a strong working bred dog. There can't be a total amnesty on working line dogs as they are still required in working spheres.

I don't think breeds should be 'diluted' down, no. Are they still the same breed without their breed characteristics?

I do think people should be far more discerning in picking a breed suited to their lifestyle. There are loads of breeds to choose from and plenty of in-between mixes if you don't want a pedigree.

Having said all that; I would guess that Rough Collies are very much already one of the 'diluted down' breeds as Whisper shows no tendency to herd anything and quite honestly with her coat I just can't imagine her making a good working collie! She collects enough grass, twigs, etc in her coat on normal walks lol. Never mind the slugs, snails and worms she has been known to bring in!

I can't imagine any shepherd / farmer having the 2 hours or so a week it takes to give her a thorough groom either!!

She has some of the breed tendencies though that I would say are similar to a Border - sound sensitive, good with other animals etc, very close bonds with her family and intelligent. (Here I disagree a little with The Culture Clash - Whisper *knows* basic commands she really can just be too stubborn / can't be bothered to do them lol)

I think yes and no... So long as the breeder is honest and knowledgeable about exactly what they are breeding for and make it clear to the puppy buyer, you can then choose which litter to get your pup from depending on what you're after. What I don't like is when breeders claim their dogs are something that they are not or don't know enough to be able to tell if their dogs are good for X or Y.

ETD: If the use of a breed no longer exists how can it be bred for? Surely it'll get diluted with out choice? Unless it is possible to set up tests but some original uses it'd would be pretty much impossible or against the law. So I maybe yeah could breed them as pets think it's almost that way in some breeds already.

Surely 'Fit For Function' for most dogs means being able to fit happily into today's lifestyles - most Border Collie owners do not have a flock of sheep in the back garden and live out in the Welsh hills - most Dobe and Rottie owners do not want their friends afraid to visit because of their dog's guarding tendencies and most of my BSD puppy buyers do not want a dog that's constantly on the go, worried about anything different and unable to settle - are we not simply creating problems by retaining traits that are no longer required ? - what's wrong with keeping the look of a breed but tweaking the temperament to fit them for more meaningful and relevant functions ?- some of you may know that I breed BSD who are able to work as therapy dogs - this has meant deliberately breeding for a steady calmer temperament over 25 years, resulting in dogs that look the same as the ones I started out with but are much easier to live with - how can this be wrong ? .

It has to be faced that dogs with difficult temperaments are the ones that are most likely to end up on rescue and ultimately put to sleep -an ever increasing anti dog faction surely means that it is irresponsible to continue to breed dogs that are unsociable either with their own species or most importantly with our own or who bounce off the walls because their working drives cannot be met.

I do understand the need for some working lines to be retained if they are genuinely doing the job they were originally bred for but these will be a small percentage of any working breed and in my opinion they should NOT be sold as pets - we cannot keep our breeds in aspic if they are to survive - they must adapt to our modern world and be bred for temperaments that fit their new functions.

Good discussion!

In an ideal world, absolutely not. however we are far from ideal, and if supplying the pet market (who are, sorry to say, more often than not just buying a dog they like the look of) with a diluted version of the original working bred dog, what's the harm in that?

I know we risk losing the instinct originally bred for (look at what's happened to the Poodle!) but maybe it's better in the long run? Our world is changing, why not our breeds too?