Wolf research is interesting - definitely. However, it equates to dogs just about as much as primate research relates to humans. In both cases there are similarities. In both cases there are differences

Yes, I agree, Brierley.

I find this a difficult topic, actually. There is so much I want to say, I never know where to start or how to explain. I've written about 3 posts on here that I've just deleted, because I can't find the words!

Wys
X

Being a dynamic, flexible situation there are times and circumstances when it is stable and times when a change in circumstances disrupts it and it become unstable.

Aggression is more likely to occur when it is unstable and members are looking for confirmation of position. Dominance, which is very different to aggression, is usually maintained though two-sided non-aggressive rituals.

Social cohesion and the synergy of the group would not be aided by ongoing intrapack disputes.

IMO stable does not mean linear, uncomplex, or unchangeable, it means a situation the members of that group are each comfortable with and understand, including how and when the variables affect the outcome, which may be less apparent to a non-canine, outsider, human observer.

Depending on individual circumstances street dogs do not necessarily consider themselves to be a single group, with an unchanging population, therefore a stable hierarchy would be less likely to be established than within a cohabiting or unchanging population.

I am absolutely 100% for building theories on observation, and accurate interpretation but if based on a very small sample size, or a few particular (and possibly interrelated) populations, one will only see a very small fraction of the behaviours and interaction available and occurring within that entire species.

Awhile back I observed a behaviour I hadn't seen before. A pushy dog was hassling another dog, herding it, humping it and generally behaving in a controlling/dominant/slightly intimidating matter, to the clear discomfort of the other dog.

It then literally did a handstand on its front paws, lifted its hindquarters high in the air, and very deliberately swung it's hips into the other dog, like the head of a golfclub, knocking the other dog 18 inches sideways and off its feet!!

I have seen plenty of hip slams, shoulder and body slams but I have never seen any other dog do this in quite this way, before or since.

Does this make it unique? I don't know. Was I aware of it as a possible dog behaviour before this? No.

Did that mean it didn't/couldn't exist? Clearly not.

It was just outside my experience in terms of anything I had read, seen or heard of so observation of a population excluding that individual might not have revealed the possibility of that behaviour.

Thank you.
I agree.

Teach the proper meaning of the word and the accurate interpretation of the the concept.

Don't argue black is white by saying it doesn't exist.

Humans and primates are not close enough to interbreed, although the behavioural parallels with great apes and humans is very interesting.

Horses and donkeys can interbreed, and have a lot of behavioural similarities, but only produce infertile mules.

Dogs and wolves, being closer still genetically can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. Wolf research also recognises pack and lone wolf situations, which also has lessons in terms of dog behaviour but is rarely discussed.

Wolf research has not looked at domesticated wolves, just hand reared wolves or "tamed" wolves and within the tamed wolf population there are varied temperaments and personalities. After all in a different canid look at the differences between tamed foxes and domesticated foxes.

I would be very interested in someone describing a wolf behaviour that never occurs in any dog, including unsocialised feral dogs.

Even the following a pointing finger difference was found to have gone in wolves by 2 years of age so developmental stages may be different, but the same behaviours may still occur and of course people haven't lived with or looked at with millions of wolves, as they have with dogs so the sample size is very much smaller.

Wolves and dogs are different, as wild horses and domesticated throughbreds are different, but there are more similarities than differences, genetically and behaviourally, as far as I can see.

Although wolves and dogs differ, dogs and dogs can differ virtually as much!

How would peeps define "dominance" if the word was going to continue to be used "in" dogs?

Also, supposing it was agreed amongst researchers who do the studies that it was an ok word to use for dogs - how do peeps think that may impact on dog training and our understanding of behaviour?




Wys
x

There was one done at the Dogs Trust, and also some studies done on feral dogs were looked at again and critiqued again

I think there was another one - Alexander someone - who if I am right, studied her own dogs I may be wrong on that one though...I read it several years ago now, and the info has moved away to create space for other stuff a sit does when you get past 40

Wys
x

I dont know at the moment of things wolves do that dogs never do
but there are things that dogs do that wolves never do

I cant remember the studies but havent there been some that found even hand reared 'pet' wolves never look to a human to help them work out a problem the dog/wolf cannot solve alone

and these were wolves brought up in the home and trained like the dogs
They learnt to be obedient and social but it never occured to them to ask for a humans help

It has taken our feral dog 10 years to learn to ask for human help---and you probably wouldn't notice it as an outsider.

As a carry on thought from that it would seem that it is a learnt behaviour rather than in inate one?

rune

I agree with Rune's answer to this, including there being a learnt element to it as a lot of dog training relates to get the dog to look at the owner for many reasons - to get the reward, to see what is coming next and when, a "watch" command, praise from focus and checking in etc, etc, in that sense some degree of a learned dependence and "if in doubt look at me" is often encouraged.


I am still interested in hearing about anything a wolf does that no dog ever does. What is unique to wolves? Given that there is so much dispute as to whether there are lessons in dog behaviour to be gained for looking at wolf behaviour, as they are claimed to be so dissimilar, surely it should be an easy question, with a whole string of answers?