I don't disagree with the pack/dominance theory in dogs but I think it's one of those terms that has been hijacked by an alternative meaning - like "gay" is no longer "happy", "wicked" has become a positive word, and so on. People use it in a "CM-type" way and that's become the new definition to lots of people. I think the original use needs a new word/phrase because it does make sense and I do believe dogs form their own structure with a dominate dog to guide them, I just think the word is the problem!

I agree completely with what has been said; the word has new meaning that doesn't co-exist with what is actually happening.

Benjie displays dominant behaviour over other dogs when ever he gets the chance too, when we were out with Leanne, his tail was very high, his head above the shoulder but after a few minutes of walking he lowered the level of intensity - I believe it it due to his nervous disposition that causes him to put on this front, yet he backed straight down when Jessie told him off for approaching her the way he did. However this lack of leadership shows as he has never and will not walk over or past Louie or Sadie and Sadie can take whatever she wants off him, bones, food, toys etc.

If we are fussing him and Louie comes over to join in (Louie and Sadie can have a fuss together no problem) Benjie will walk away and lay down in a corner.. The strange thing between my pack (well the 3 when they are all together) is that Louie will lick their faces - which I believe is a sign of respect to the leader (or have I picked a load of twaddle up from somewhere?) yet Benjie grumbles and moves his head around as if he doesn't like it and is uncomfortable. Sadie will only tolerate it for a little while, but she accepts it.

Sadie is also the only one who will play with Louie, if Louie tries to initiate play with Benjie - he very much dislikes it and will run away, yet if Sadie and Louie are playing, or any dogs are playing - he will try and step in and stop it..

I've wandered off the subject - apologies, I don't understand them but I know that Sadie is the boss, if she wants something she will get it but then even though they know I'm not a dog my word is final.

Does that make any sense? Like Sara, my dogs would not co -operate together to bring down and animal and eat it, they're far too used to getting scraps and fed at certain times, but I've often wondered about stray domestic dogs and if they ever work together in packs to find food etc?

What if it's just the selfish gene with a touch of aggression?

• I want that - you touch it and I'll have ya!!
  
• I'm sitting here, get lost!
  
• I'M eating first, sucker!

Of course the less aggressive or those who are less willing to fight quickly learn or are 'trained' into letting others have their way - not unlike what you see with bullies and some people in human society.

The selfish gene is present in all of us - indeed, it is essential to the survival of a species, in primitives anyway.

Maybe some people interpret that as 'pack theory' - I see it just as animal nature.

That is totally different to being a leader---Etta wants to own everything but she is well aware that she can't---she has to give things up to me and to other dogs in spite of making a fuss about it.

The reason she CAN'T keep everything is because she isn't 'dominant' or confident or able to hang onto things.

We have a friend here at the moment with a couple of dogs, her jrt spent this morning owning lots of things including a rather nice hole in the garden, a patch of grass and her owner as well as more obvious things. She got away with it for most of the time but Zeff or Champa won't allow it and will point that out to her. Gabe won't bother because he doesn't need to.

rune

I do not see a hierarchy as such, amongst our 5 dogs.

In doorways, all the dogs defer to Lady but the terriers are probably just avoiding getting trodden on. Tara will defer to Polo in this situation.

All our dogs will fight over toys, given the opportunity.

All our dogs would fight over food, given the opportunity. Tess and Maisie will both respect each other when eating and not approach the other until finished eating.

Polo is not a confident dog but will bully Tara, just because he can, as she will avoid confrontation with him but if they come to blows over something that really matters to Tara she will fight with him and Polo will always then back off.

The only thing I think may be linked to status is the tension between Tara(GSD) and Maisie(Yorkie). They are absolutely fine with each other outside the house but cannot mix indoors. They are both unspeyed bitches and I wonder if this is a contributory factor too.

Me and my OH can take food off any one of the dogs if we had too. Same with toys. I believe this is because they don't see us as a threat to them as we provide it and have trained them to give stuff up if asked.

I will read the rest in a moment I just wanted to respond to the OP

I think the parent child example is a good one
But the child is not trying to usurp the parents and take charge - they just want what they want and are trying something that might just work for them

I think it is more about learning a strategy for getting what you want
some people/animals have learnt that lots of bluster/chucking a stomp gets them what they want
Some people/animals just cant be bothered with a fight, its not worth the effort so they dont bother

BUT if the 'dom' one was never rewarded by their bluster then the kid would end up better behaived and happer in the long run - and the animal would stop using bluster if it didnt work

I call the dog who guards and takes and prevents other dogs walking in and out of rooms bullies
and the ones who let them away with it are just to polite

As parents we teach children to share, we dont let them tell what the other children can do
we dont proudly say 'Tommy is just dominant'
I feel the same with dogs, I dont accept bullying behaviour

No dog of mine has to guard resources, they are safe to lie where they are lying unharrased and they can move from one room to the other if they so wish


I did believe in the pack thing before I got Mia
But I saw how depressed Ben was becoming not being let into the kitchen for a drink of water because Mia was in charge of the doorway
Yes she dominated and Ben let her but she was stressed because she was having to control him all the time and he was stressed because he was having to be careful not to upset her

I stepped in and made my rules - and they are both happy without even a hard look at each other in well over a year

I think perhaps one thing we can agree on so far, is that there is no such thing as a linear hierarchy?

It used to be thought that this was what a hierarchy was in "dogdom" - a strict A,B,C,D pecking order which never altered.
However I think now a lot of people disagree with this particular theory in dogs.

So it's interesting that things can be seen to alter.

I pretty much agree with this article on dog social interactions:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php

I think that dogs are exactly like us. I think they do things because they can, and because of learning and classical conditioning - not because they consider themselves as individuals "dominant".

I did think dogs were dominant over others some time ago, but have altered my views.

Dogs were never really evolved to be in a pack structure, they've always seemed to be in more of a family structure as I understand it.

Wys
x

as ever well said
It is funny that primates and humans are really one of the most hierarchical species but when training groups we tend not to think about dominance

and as humans we never walk into a room and think 'ohh they are the dom ones I better defer to you'
Charisma, situation, ability they all define how people behaive to other people

None is dom all the time, sometimes we like to lead, sometimes follow - and someone can loose a position of respect over you by abusing their power

Agreed. Watch any group of kids playing and you'll see the same sort of scuffles, handbags at dawn etc that you see in a group of dogs. All said in a slightly different way, of course, but very often with very similar actions and reactions

I can't remember where I read it and haven't been able to find it again, but I'm sure I read somewhere that not even chickens have a 'pecking order' as was once thought; that too is fluid and not linear.