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Location: Fife Scotland
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,946
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26-10-2008, 09:39 PM
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Location: Derbyshire.....the walking county
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,982
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26-10-2008, 10:04 PM
my experience of raw v's kibble is this........
my pup at 4 mths old started to refuse kibble, was lethargic, ran a temperature of 103 and kept having bouts of D&S.
the vet put it down to teething.
this refusal and picky eating continued and after trying different brands.
at 2yrs 3 mths he suffered from Bloat(no torsion) he was operated on and his stomach was inflamed which had blocked the opening to his stomach.
i then fed him tinned Chappie for 6 months on my vets advise. he loved it and never refused any meal.
we then had another Bloat scare. the vet wanted tests done to find out what was going on. he had bloods done for Addisons, EPI, Cushings and normal tests. also fecal tests for campylobactor, samonella, worms and giardia.
fecal tests had slight campylobactor and samonella which he was treated for.
bloods revealed he was deficient in Vit B12, which is a cause of Malabsorption. all the symptoms for this are the same as Bloat. he has been on injections now for 18 mths and things are improving.
my vet advised a change in diet and the only one left was Raw.
i have never looked back. he only gets picky now when his B12 levels start to drop (usually about every 2 months).
i DO blame kibble for this as it doesnt contain B12 which is a necessary vitamin. yes meat naturally contains B12 but this is lost in the process of kibble as its water soluable.
i think you need to approach people who have successfully fed raw and not just those who have had problems to be able to get a correct view for your research.
i have 2 dogs now that are fed raw, and yes i did have a problem with dog 2 with kibble causing D&S ALL the time.
here are some photos of before the raw and B12 injections
and after with the raw and B12.
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Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
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26-10-2008, 10:29 PM
I would never dream of telling anyone what they should feed their dogs on, the same way I would never try to get people to follow my vegan diet
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Location: uk
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,302
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27-10-2008, 07:53 AM
If your dog looks good, has the right amount of energy (Not hyper) his coat/skin condition is great and they are not up and down the vets or having bouts of sickness and the squits, then you must be feeding him something he is doing well on... also think the dog should enjoy the food
Fwiw my dogs are fed naturediet and raw meats, these include tripe, beef chunks/mince, chicken wings, turkey thigh/mince/lamb chops/mince/chunks and pork ribs and chunks.... plus some liver and kidney... I won't feed rabbit on principal as I keep bunnies, but most meats are given and my dogs so far have just been to the vet for vaccs and kennel cough... none of these diet related
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Location: Somewhere
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,087
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27-10-2008, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by 06dcc.brigdenh 
When I said 'limited' ingredients I mean I have some people who are feeding their dogs just tripe all the time, or just chicken wings
Can you clarify what you mean by you 'have' some people? Do you mean you read about them on the Yahoo email group?
Hills are striving to get money in their pocket no more than any other brand, in fact they advertise way less.
When you have more experience of the raw feeding community you will see that most people do not feed 'branded' food. In fact we feed mostly food from the supermrket or the butcher/abattoir. As for lining pockets, the Yahoo email group you mentioned is run completely by volunteers. They make no money from it. So can you explain why they are running the raw feeding email group? Perhaps it is because they believe that it is the best thing for their dogs?
Vets advocate them because they witness their success. She is not sponsored by them. Not all vets subscribe to them anyway, noone is forcing them. I do not think it is fair to assume vets are simply lining their pockets by advocating them- do you know all vets personally? No. And my teacher is not my vet so she is not trying to get money off me. I also do not think you know how or what they are taught at University, you are just adopting some of the statements you have read on pro-raw feeding websites. I am trying to be completely fair about how I formulate my opinion with this, and am weighing up pros and cons of BOTH sides of the argument so please do not launch in as though I am anti- you.
The only food you mentioned was Hills. What about other brands? The fact that this was the only brand you mentioned and that you stated that your teacher said that dogs rarely if ever get illfrom eating Hills suggests that you are advertising Hills food.
I expected this to happen though, because I 'm asking you to question yourself, and people can rarely do that- at least not straight away. I questioned myself to get to where I am now, and it is not easy.
You're not asking me to question myself hun, especially with such vague statements. If you can give me some solid scientific evidence as to why I, or any raw feeder, should feed kibble then I may think about considering it. Otherwise I am totally happy with how I feed my dog and one person is not going to change that
My vet was not just restricted to Hills. She was personally convinced that it is the best diet for health, but accepts not everyone will be able to buy it, so when others put forward names of brands she evaluated them accordingly, saying that James Wellbeloved was good, as well as Arden Grange.
What did she say about the other brands then? Why did you only mention Hills in your OP?
The bones my dog was eating were chicken bones- raw ones. She generally is not a bolter, and is a medium-large dog (GSD/ Greyhound mix). The percentages you give are not in accordance with what everyone advises, you might go to another source of raw feeding information and find different ones.
That's why I said it was a prey model diet
I was feeding a sensible interpretation of the raw food diet, I feel- around 8 of her weekly meals containing bones. She was wretching night after night, and by the signs of various stains on the carpet she had been doing it on other occasions as well. She also chewed grass a lot and whimpered to go out frequently, but then would not do anything if we took her. She was not constipated, I can only assume she felt a bit poorly- and this did not go away over a long time.
The your interpretation was not right for your dog.
The illnesses I am talking about are the diarrhoea, apparent nausea,Can you explain this please? grass chewing, constipation etc (wide range of digestive related things) that people encounter, and not just when they first begin feeding raw. I worked out what was best for my dog, gave her variety and her poos seemed to become consistent, however there still seemed to be some issues, like those I mentioned that would not go away.
I cannot give you figures of how many people are experiencing such problems but they are obviously widespread, as I see and hear countless tales about it. It is apparent, and if I was hoping to prove anything 100% and actually affect the raw feeding world, I would investigate it and produce such figures.
It works both ways anyway- can you give me facts and figures about how many dogs are completely without such problems?
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Location: Somewhere
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,087
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27-10-2008, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
I don`t really understand what you are asking then - or stating. You are either considering and evaluating OR you have reached a conclusion. You can`t really do both.
To me , it seems that you seem to be supporting this tutor`s views that Hills is THE best diet for dogs. I`m sure you said that. And of all the views from the Raw Feeding site you only quoted ones who had found it problematic. And then you said your own dog didn`t do well on it. It seems that you have indeed reached conclusion that raw feeding isn`t for you. However, I don`t see how you can generalise from that very subjective evidence.
Great post. If you are a university student you have to learn to give both sides of an argument if you want to get a decent mark
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Location: Somewhere
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,087
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27-10-2008, 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by 06dcc.brigdenh
I have my own dog, and I also have knowledge of many others who have had similar problems as I. How many dogs have you studied to decide it is safe?
Sorry to ask so many questions but it is a bit aggravating when someone writes a thread entitled 'Raw Feeding Controversy' then doesn't give any kind of sensible argument - just a series of vague and unexplained statements
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Location: Glasgow, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 810
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27-10-2008, 08:58 PM
You talked about dogs not needing carbs, and I know that aside from pregnant bitches there is no NEED for carbs. But it is known that some dogs do better on high carb diets - particularly working dogs and athletes. Mine is one of them. I know that part of the reason is because the energy systems used for short bursts of energy are carb driven - so dogs that rely on those energy systems will perform better on a diet with plenty of carbs. However, that doesn't explain why she needs so many carbs - I've found that she needs about 40 - 50% carbs or she gets sluggish. She does best on Burns -previously mini-bites, but now Burns Active (20% fat; 24% protein; 40% carbs if I remember correctly).
My feeling is that it doesn't matter too much whether you feed cooked, raw or kibble. The most important thing is that you get the ratio of nutrients right for your dog. We tried ours on raw for a short spell and whilst it didn't cause any tummy upsets or health problems she turned into a slouch. But I very much doubt that it had anything to do with the fact that the food was uncooked. I am sure lots of dogs do react badly to raw meat - but it's very possible that many of the people that say their dogs do badly on raw/kibble notice an improvement upon switching simply because they've stumbled across a fats/carbs/protien balance that's right for their dog. A raw diet is obviously much higher in fat and protein than most good kibbles. So tummy upsets on raw could be down to that. Mix some carbs into the raw diet and the problem might resolve itself.
I'll be interested in hearing more about the nutritional component of your course! I'm currently working my way through the Small Animal Clinical Nutrition which has some extremely interesting material.
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Location: Camborne,UK
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62
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29-10-2008, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Shona
must you be so nippy.... I had thought poss you had started this thread to widen you knowlage...
Yeah, I do have PMT right now! I am naturally shy and suppose I have learnt to be defensive becaue I always get trampled over- not saying you are trying to do that to me right now though. I do not have a problem with people adding comments to a debate that go against mine, or asking questions at all, but the majority of the time people write their arguement in a way that criticises the other person in some way, rather than just their view. If you get my meaning...it all gets a bit 'oh, what does she know...' and you get interrogated. Anyway, I can only say right now I cannot actually dismiss raw altogether- my dog's coat [I]is[I] in lovely health and she does get more enjoyment out of it I think. My worry is in the 'passage through the digestive system.' If the prolems I had were only short term- fine. But she still get times when she poduces liquid poo, or spends several weeks apparently feeling a bit sick, eating grass, and whining, or going through periods of wretching. I am always reading you do not have to weigh stuff or work out exact plans- yet this is what it would take I reckon, and knowing exactly how each food item passes through to completely avoid this. These problems do not seem at all uncommon among raw food feeders, and although you can say it is due to people not working it out right, I feel really sorry for little pups out there suffering from nausea, cramps, being sick etc while their owners 'figure it out.' With dog food you just stick it down and 99% of the time is totally problem free. That's not to say the other aspects of it are good though....so what do I do? Less bones wouldn't create firm stools. I am thinking of continuuing to feed a dry dog food for one meal a day and raw for the other (as we were going to wean her off raw)- do people think that would work? Then there would be reduction in the amount of bones she has to process each day, yet she is still getting some fresh, real ingredients...
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Location: Somewhere
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,087
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29-10-2008, 11:39 AM
Sometimes dogs do better on a couple of smaller meals a day rather than one meal. I know if I feed my dog all his food in the morning he brings up bile in the night if he doesn't get a little 'snack' before bedtime.
The loose stools could be due to an intolerance to something you are feeding your dog. I know some dogs don't do well on chicken, some don't do well on pork.
But if we knew exactly what you are feeding your dog then maybe we could give you some pointers
Just want to add, please don't take anything personally, no one is attacking you as a person. I personally would like to help you get your dog's diet right if you would like to continue with raw.
If you want to go back to kibble that's fine too, but I think the way your posts read earlier on it was as if you were saying there was some kind of secret ('controversy') about raw food which was going on and that loads of people's dogs were getting sick.
I agree with you that some dogs do suffer when people decide to switch them to raw without doing the necessary research. But that's down to the owner, not the food
HTH
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