IME it is the people who say they are breeding purely for a 'pet' market that aren't breeding particularly well.

Breeders who breed strictly for looks with no regard to temperament don't fall into the category of responsible in my eyes. Thankfully, at least from my experience, they appear to be the minority. Every show breeder/person I have met has temperament at the fore front of their breeding program.

Not all people who breed and work their dogs do so intensely. Hard core working dog people often don't sell their dogs to strictly pet homes because they generally don't do well in that environment. People who dabble in field trials (using Labs as an example here), go picking up throughout the shooting season and perhaps have the odd FTW (field trial win) on their dogs generally DO place dogs in pet homes.

But how do you know if they are good lines? Is there a list or something that shows some of the best ones?

valandra, go to worldpedigrees.com and type in your dog's KC name. You'll be able to trace right back for 50 years or more. If there are lots of champions it's a good sign. Perhaps do a Google search on some of the names that crop up to find out more about them. It's really quite interesting - especially when you go back a long way.

I managed to put together a pedigree in pictures going back about 50 years. You can see how various matings changed the appearance of the line.

Oh, at last, somebody that doesn't think that a dog being bred from show parents is the be all and end all of breeding..................hoooooooray!!!!!!!!!! I've been discussing this point on Dogsey for such a time but everyone (apart from a few) feels if a dog is not successful in the show ring, it's unworthy of being bred

But if a dog hasn't proven itself in any way, in the ring, field or otherwise, how is that dog worthy of being bred? how is someone breeding unproven dogs any different to a backyard breeder?

No, not just the show ring...working too if the dog is supposed to work.

The trouble is there has to be a measure doesn't there...a standard that says how good a dog could be, in terms of health temperament and how well a dog can do it's job...If you ignore that, then how on earth do you decide whether a dog is good enough to breed from? I have a wonderful dog here,just fantastic, but he isn't a great example of a FCR, he hasn't enough drive to work and he falls short of the standard in a lot of ways. His siblings however are doing exceptionally well. I wouldn't breed him just because he's lovely...surely that would be irresponsible, even if I had all the health checks done? If I bred from him, then his offspring would probably fall even further away from the standard as no self respecting breeder would use him as their stud, so it would be someone else with a nice dog. 2 generations down the line you have supposed Flat Coats that look like black Labradors.....but it doesn't matter because they're nice??? But they aren't Flat Coats.....because they don't look like Flat Coats anymore....

I've bred my Krystal recently and I CAN ASSURE you, I am no backyard breeder, thank you.

That didn't answer my question. If a dog is an unproven pet, how is it 'worthy' of being bred? where do you draw the line?

IMO, there are so many unwanted dogs of every breed out there that dogs shouldn't be bred unless they are proven.

Well, my Krystal (who is most certainly to breed standard) was bred with another Chi who is also an excellent example of the breed. Her pups, admittedly are only 3 months old but they are perfect up to now. No disputing their breed unless anyone is blind or hasn't got a clue what they are talking about.

I'm not talking breeding any old pet to any old pet. I'm talking breeding two quality, healthy, great temperament, breed standard dogs and producing wonderful examples of the breed.

And I didn't just breed Krystal because she's a nice pet. I bred her because she is a very good example of the breed and, believe me, I have had many dog people tell me that. I don't need to parade around a show ring for some judge to place her, to know whether I should breed her or not. There is far too much politics in showing for me and I'm not one to keep my mouth shut, so the nearest I'll get to any show ring, is watching it on tv or pc