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Pita
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02-04-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by tillytails
Interesting debate though - I always assumed neutering was standard practice unless you're planning to breed from your dog.
It may be standard practice but that does not mean it is right
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lou3
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02-04-2006, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Thordell
It may be standard practice but that does not mean it is right
Nope the benefits to the dogs health (both physical and mental) the sociological benefits of him not having the desire to roam (usually) or being able to impregnate bitches with unwanted litters, and the possible behavioural benefits are what makes it right.
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02-04-2006, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Thordell
Not sure the men in your life would agree with you.

Come to think of it neither do I , animals in the wild are not all on valium because they are left as nature intended.
Nothing we do with our dogs is as "nature intended" Wild dogs/wolves are a whole different argument, they live in well-structured packs, with no dumb humans upsetting the balance. When we force an animal to live in harmony with us we must also expect to have to treat them as though they are domestic animals - not wild creatures.
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IsoChick
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03-04-2006, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by IsoChick

I'm not thinking of breeding, but wasn't sure if we have to be careful with Maxwell around un-spayed bitches as soon as we get him home (he'll be castrated between 6mths and 1yr)

As he'll still be in close contact with one of his sisters and his mum and possibly another un-spayed bitch, I'd like to know if we'll have to take "extra precautions" before he's done
This is why we're castrating him...
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Pita
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03-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by lou3
Nothing we do with our dogs is as "nature intended" Wild dogs/wolves are a whole different argument, they live in well-structured packs, with no dumb humans upsetting the balance. When we force an animal to live in harmony with us we must also expect to have to treat them as though they are domestic animals - not wild creatures.
Agree with that but why does that mean that we have to castrate them when we could arrange things so this is not needed, so why do we risk causing our animals problems when it is not strictly necessary, only, I would suggest, because we would rather neuter our dogs than put ourselves to the trouble of arranging things to make neutering unnecessary. Whether people believe it or not some dogs can suffer many problems related to neutering, particularly if this is undertaken before puberty. I am not total against neutering but would only consider it for medical reasons, as I know a normal well adjusted male is not a problem to live with or to the neighbourhood.
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Hannah
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03-04-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by IsoChick
This is why we're castrating him...
I do not have any strong views either way on castration, we are not planning to casterate our male pup, unless it becomes necessary for health reasons, but he will not be in regular contact with female dogs and we dont feel it will be neccesary we are also seeing how he develops before deciding if we will show him, and being a fairly rare breed we are open to the idea of using him for stud if he is suitable and would benifit the breed.
But imoh if you are concerned about the regular contact he will be in with females then I think it is responsible to be having him castrated, beter safe than sorry.
I can see both sides of the argument, and know many people with entire males living with un-spayed bitches without problems. This is one of the many issues that people have strong beliefs on and will never agree on I think you must weigh up the pro's and con's for yourself and do what you feel is best for you and your dog!
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JoedeeUK
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03-04-2006, 04:06 PM
But one thing i will say is and this is the same for the girls, having them done does reduce the risk of cancer. So experts and vets say, i dont know how true this is.
There is a a marginally higher incidence of prostrate cancer in castrated dogs than in uncastrated dogs(as of course they do not remove the prostrate whilst castrating only the testicles) Obviously they never develop testicular cancer(which is very rare in dogs BTW)so castrating does prevent that cancer

Like I said castrating is a personal choice, but it isn't the panacea some vets think it is
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Bodhi
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03-04-2006, 04:16 PM
Better to be safe than sorry in my books.

Yes, we are all responsible owners, but I could never forgive myself if my dog fathered a litter which was bound to go to the pound/rescue/pts because he got free, or whatever reason could arise.

Same with Bodhi. I don't want any chance what so ever that she will become pregnant. So she is never going to get the opportunity. She is being spayed.

Nothing to do with health. Nothing to do with happiness.

Purely logic.
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Pita
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03-04-2006, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK
There is a a marginally higher incidence of prostrate cancer in castrated dogs than in uncastrated dogs(as of course they do not remove the prostrate whilst castrating only the testicles)
Last time I asked it is almost unknown in the intact dog, with bitches there is a risk of pyro and providing everything is taken when the bitch is spayed then that is one thing she can't get.

My reasons for being so against castration except for health reasons is because I have had a dog castrated young, at 13 months, and he suffered from many problems the main one being reduced immunity but he also had a coat change which caused continual and repeated infection of the skin, his long bones continued growing so he was too tall, he had early onset arthritis, he never developed properly never looking like the breed I had bought because I admired it so much, not that it made him any less loveable but it was not what I wanted. He suffered for innumerable idiopathic problems including recurring diarrhoea, throat and lung infection & lameness and bladder infection. He also had demodectic mange on and off all his life and he became of sexual interest to male dogs & bitches.

Of course, I have no way of knowing if he would have had these problems anyway, but it is unlikely, his breed is not known for any of these problems. Because of his very poor health I started to research the effects of castration and it started to seem that his problems were not that uncommon in the castrated male both canine and human. So I started asking vets and doctors for their opinion and although some vets would not hear of the idea most agreed that it might well be the source of his problems.

Have always sworn I would never castrate a dog again as I blamed myself for his suffering, but last December I had to castrate my eldest dog for medical reasons, and don’t let anyone tell you it does not change them. Already the dog that was sensible, calm and steady is now a maniac, seems confused as to what he should be doing when given an order, I wonder if they removed his brain as well.
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lou3
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03-04-2006, 08:21 PM
None of the problems you have just mentioned are likely to be associated with neutering. 13 months is actually pretty old on the scale of average neutering age and is considered adult from a veterinary perspective in small breeds (18 months for large breeds and 2 yrs for giant breeds) Latest recommendations from studies advise that early neutering (for both sexes) is before 3 months and that this is RECOMMENDED in males for maximum benefit. For females it is recommended to wait until at least 3 months.
As for the problems you just mentioned.
Immune deficiencies are usually inherited the few that arent caused by a severe infection (usually viral) which can run subclinically and a lot of vets would not think to test for it.
Growth abnormalities are 99% of the time a nutrition problem Problems such as those you described are seen often in large breeds fed a very high-protein puppy/junior food or a raw/homecooked diet.
The skin disease and "feminisation" characteristics you described are to do with hormones that are not affected by testosterone concentration. You have actually described a syndrome that is most commonly seen as a result of a benign tumour of the relevant gland. (though which gland it is has escaped me right now)
Behavioural changes following surgery are not unknown - but this can occur with any surgery it is not perculiar to castration.

Also to address the cancer issue, prostate cancer is a VERY common cause of death in uncastrated males, it is relatively uncommon in castrated dogs - especially those castrated before puberty. Testicular cancer is also actually on the increase.
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