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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Tassle
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04-05-2009, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
If I had to sum up an Alpha male dog, I would say Aloof, Disobedient, Laid Back, Unaggressive and Difficult !

But the greatest of fun !!
I didn't have Gabe from a pup - but all the behaviour you have described is Gabe all over......except he couldn't care less about sex (unless I am not around - when he gets horrendous SA and humps anything in sight!)

But he is fairly obedient - and would be a fantastic working dog if I bothered to do anything with him.
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
You wrote that alphas show no fear and are always cool.
You claim you were afraid. If we follow this thinking then the dog should have seen you were not alpha. You lost your status - again using your metric. If you were not alpha (because you were not cool) acting not afraid again wouldn't have had any effect since the dog wouldn't have seen you as it's alpha.

Aside from the fact that there is no reasonable explanation for your story from a scientific pov, it doesn't even make sense from your own pov.


It is quite possible and documented that fears and phobias can develop even such things had not elicited fear in previous cases. As a rule I consider speculating about the etiology of aberrant behaviour to be a waste of time. The truth is that you don't KNOW (please don't confuse it with belief) what caused this. All you really know is the behavior you observed.

And aggression is often rooted in fear, so your tale of aggression tells me that you have an romantic view of this animal that is not real. This is consistent with your ideas of wolf-dominance-alpha which have been abandoned for far better working theories. You seem to be in love with the idea of the brave alpha leader, the romance of the lone wolf choosing to share his life with you because you are a strong leaderand thus interpret everything through this biased perspective.
Ah Promethean, now you HAVE got me thinking. I like your logic and your reasoning. Alpha is showing fear, therefore alpha is showing a loss of face. Yup, I like that, but it still does not explain to me why Hal so instantly became scared of thunder and fireworks because I had become, through a traumatic event, traumatised and therefore weak and vulnerable.

I don't know the answer to this, I am genuinely and truthfully telling you what happened, and genuinely and truthfully telling you that through immense will power I managed to remain cool through thunder storms and fireworks going off next door, and get Hal out of his fear of thunder and fireworks. This is intense anthropomorphisation, which as you know I detest, but it could it be that Hal understood that my weakened state of mind had caused by a traumatic event, understood it and accepted it ? That to me smacks of intense mawkishness, but I know of no other explanation. What do you think?

Onto the fascinating subject of wolves. Wolves are not dominant with regard to humans, they are terrified of humans, for a very good reason. They have been persecuted relentlessly and very unfairly for at least a thousand years by man. My wolf cross Hal did not choose to live his life with me, he had no choice ! I purchased him at 6 weeks old from his breeder, and whether he liked it or not, he was my pet, my dog. The fact that he retained some of his ancient wolf traits filled me with delight, it didn't make me feel A Big Woman, Mrs Powerful. It made me feeled awed and honoured that I had this wonderful animal's trust and love, although he had a bloody funny way of showing it sometimes. He was a Git through and through - not sure the word "Git" translates into American, but if you have never heard the word before, it means a loveable rogue. It depends on the context in which you use the word. You could say "that thug who beat up an old lady, he's a right Git !" and in that context, it means he is thoroughly unpleasant, but when I say of my Hal "he was a right Git", it is a term of reluctant admiration !

I do not view wolves or wolf crosses through rose-tinted spectacles. I am no misty-eyed, star-struck wolf lover. I am an ordinary flawed human being, who bought a wolf cross puppy 12 years ago when they were illegal in this country, and loved him unreservedly, warts and all, until the day he died in my arms. I made every mistake in the book with Hal, but we had tremendous adventures together and too numerous laughs to fit into a lifetime of books. He was a Character with a capital C, but I never was, and never will be, blinkered about his many faults ... and mine !
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
The world if full of alpha dogs.

Aloof = raised poorly
Disobedient = Untrained
Laid Back = No drives
Difficult = Poor trainer
Promethean : you clearly have NEVER lived with an alpha male dog !
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
Thanks Gnasher . Hal was quite a character and I know you adored him. You've done really well with Tai too, which is dead lovely to see. Yes, Loki carries his tail high when out - not curled over but he has always been extremely confident. He was the maddest one of the litter, trouncing his litter siblings and leaping around. A big bundle of mad fluff - trust us to pick him!
The yobbo of the litter !! I don't mean that rudely, I know how much you adore Loki, but he is the typical Soldier, the beta enforcer ! He sounds just like Woody, one of Hal's sons. I would love to meet Loki and you some time. How is he doing at the moment? I can't remember where you live, but it would be great to meet up. Tai is a honey bunny, it has to be said, and it would be lovely to get together.
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
I didn't have Gabe from a pup - but all the behaviour you have described is Gabe all over......except he couldn't care less about sex (unless I am not around - when he gets horrendous SA and humps anything in sight!)

But he is fairly obedient - and would be a fantastic working dog if I bothered to do anything with him.
I forgot to mention the SA ! Alphas do not like to be separated from their packs.
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Borderdawn
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04-05-2009, 07:10 PM
but it still does not explain to me why Hal so instantly became scared of thunder and fireworks because I had become, through a traumatic event, traumatised and therefore weak and vulnerable.
Dogs pick up on stuff, he was merely doing that. Many show dogs are handled by confident handlers as their owners are nervous and the dogs react to it. If Hal was "alpha" he wouldnt of copied you, he would of remained none fearful of something that had never harmed him. In my opinion of course.
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Borderdawn
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04-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Wolves are not dominant with regard to humans, they are terrified of humans, for a very good reason. They have been persecuted relentlessly and very unfairly for at least a thousand years by man.
Most animals are scared of what they dont understand, Wolves dont "know" humans hunted them, the flee because its their nature to run from things that are not natural for them.
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Lucky Star
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04-05-2009, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
The yobbo of the litter !! I don't mean that rudely, I know how much you adore Loki, but he is the typical Soldier, the beta enforcer ! He sounds just like Woody, one of Hal's sons. I would love to meet Loki and you some time. How is he doing at the moment? I can't remember where you live, but it would be great to meet up. Tai is a honey bunny, it has to be said, and it would be lovely to get together.

Yep, that just about describes him .

We're down south. He's doing okay, thanks. He is still having fits - we've just got over the last lot and he's back to normal now - stroppy, hyper, in-your-face ... but ever-so affectionate, into everything, full of energy and FUN, sweet-natured and bright. Still up for a fight, whatever. He has an array of enemies - not all of his making but theirs!
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Lucky Star
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04-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Dogs pick up on stuff, he was merely doing that. Many show dogs are handled by confident handlers as their owners are nervous and the dogs react to it. If Hal was "alpha" he wouldnt of copied you, he would of remained none fearful of something that had never harmed him. In my opinion of course.
That's interesting because when Loki was very young, I tried (STUPIDLY!) to expose him to fireworks in the hope he would get used to them. Typically for me, a HUGE banger went off, I mean seriously loud and he bolted and hid! But the next time we had fireworks, he seemed to have sorted it out in his mind and he was up for going to 'get' them. He's been like that ever since. Obviously we don't let him out but he wants to go outside and 'get' the fireworks.

I don't think he's scared of them but he's not comfortable with them, if that makes sense?
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ajshep1984
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04-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I forgot to mention the SA ! Alphas do not like to be separated from their packs.
Many dogs suffer seperation anxiety, it has no correlation with dominance.
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