I am not defending it, by the photos imo the decision was correct, but, there can be degrees of something, be that a heart murmur, degree of lameness, degree of shortness of nose, degree of excessive looseness of skin, degree of ectropian etc?



I think there is a lot of people within a breed that get so accustomed to how their dogs look that they become blinded to how far from "normal" or "functional" they have come, to the point that a non-expert in the street can have a far better idea of it than the breeders and judges in that breed.

I have seen extreme Neos at the Amsterdam winners show in the past with literally bleeding calluses on their elbows that still went in the ring!! To the people showing them that was not a problem as clearly several Neos were like that, so to them that was normal, or at least acceptable as the cost of the size and skin, to me it was not normal nor good!

She does qualify what she means by "hybrid", and technically she is correct, anything that isn't from a single breed.

"Hybrid vigour" is sought and applied to first crosses with agricultural breeds, and people use to as a claim of a benefit in first crosses in dogs. How can you have "Hybrid vigour" unless what you have produced is a hybrid?

As a cattle breeder I can state we've been using this term as long as I can remember. We use it for hybrid cattle, as well as with regard to crops.

Hybrid Vigor Cattle - http://www.breedersales.com/Learn/Hy...or-Cattle.html

http://www.biotech-info.net/heterosis_duvick1.pdf

Ruby

Yes you are right there are degrees of it, but personally I dont think we should alow any at all. Possibly it might take a while to reduce it in some breeds and breeders might have to man up and say while they are fixing their breed their might be no more trips to the big ring
tbh I think it is a fair punishment if there is noone in the breed that was able to go against the flock and say 'a dogs eye shouldnt look like that'

Very very good point well made and something we are seeing very clearly just now - people in the breed are up in arms saying everything is fine - when clearly it isnt
That is what is going to take the time to change - these people have to learn what a dog should look like

Possibly the clumber owners should have to have a week with their bottom eyelid taped down so they can see what its like for their dog

the poor poor neos - how are these people dog lovers?

I, personally, don't think the vet checks that the owners have done themselves, are too reliable. The vets at Crufts were looking for specific things, whereas other vets, most likely, will go by how the breed should look... Some of the dogs from those breeds are good examples of the breed, going by the standard... but they are terrible examples for dogs. We shouldn't be used to seeing dogs struggling to breathe, or having extremely droopy eyes, or having a ridiculous amount of excess skin, or dying young from hereditary conditions... unfortunately, we are... and some people just don't seem to be able to see why these things are terrible issues. The more people who start to see these issues, and the sooner something begins to be done, the better.

Have to agree here... and surely vets must be able to agree on whether a dog has Ectropion or not.

The can see Entropion where the eyelashes grow in (and thereby irritate the eyeball) but as far as I know Ectropion is also fairly easy to spot - eyelashes growing outwards, meaning the lower eyelid is too loose to permit the lashes to do their proper job.

Eyelashes are there to help prevent any foreign matter getting into the eye - and together with the blink response, do that very well (as you and I with functioning eyelids and lashes will confirm).

If a dog can't blink properly because its lower lids are too slack, then that is also a health issue to my mind.

I am not surprised that some dogs with slack lower eyelids appear to have inflammation in the conjunctiva (membranes surrounding the eye).

The eyelids, if they are so loose they cannot come together in a blink to protect the eye from dust and foreign bodies are not able to work, and furthermore if the eyelashes which are the first defence against dust and other airborne particles, are turning out (as in Ectropion) then that is inviting infection and irritant particles in. Such a dog has no normal protection against eye infections or irritations that dogs with normal eyelids and lashes would take for granted.

Maybe I will upset some folks who claim "a bit of haw" is a breed feature... but NOT if it prevents the protective mechanisms surrounding the eye to do their proper job.... and total eye health HAS to take these things into consideration.

http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/20...umber-spaniel/

May be of interest:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/67384

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/67383

The Canine Alliance idea is just....... indescribable. The KC doesn't care, anyway. From the people I have spoken too, I don't think it will have much of an effect. They are happy that 9 out of the 16 dogs did pass, and concerned that most failed due to their eyes - they'll be looking out for eye problems next year. Overall, they are happy with how it went, so maybe these breeders should focus on producing healthy dogs rather then fighting the inevitable?

If the Kennel Club gives in to their demands, they are proving that they have a big conflict of interests. That could very well be in the end of the KC.

After looking at some of the footage on PDE and PDE2 I completely agree!