I think the problem comes when people try to interpret the `thought processes` of the dog or wolf - which is bad science as dogs don`t have language so can`t sit and ponder the logic of your actions in keeping the food away from them for a while.
The trouble is, people get a bit anthropomorphic about this - especially with wolves for some reason , and start bringing in all sorts of human baggage.
I don`t think there`s much point arguing with the Jan Fennel Brigade on the science of it because they`re working on the assumption that Jan Fennell is Right. Since she`s based her `method` mainly on intuition and personal experience (yes, I have read the book) it comes down to wether it works or not - same as with Cesar Milan.
Personally I think it`s a great way to sell books / videos / lectures . etc. but I wouldn`t believe it or use it!

Scarter interesting that you cherry pick my post and ignore the bit where I say exactly what you say

I was just pointing out that a dog is a wolf, no speculation there they are the same species 99.8% geneticly the same and can breed and produce fertile offspring - a dog IS a wolf

also, since you bring diet into it
There is no speculation that dogs have the shorter digestive tract, the lack of grindy teeth and dont produce amalase but do synthesize their own vitamin C - these are all facts - and these all lead to the fact that dogs are carnivores, scavingers who can survive on other foods if the best food is in short supply - but they are carnivores

do you also argue that cats are omnivores too?? Because pet food manufacturors make kibble for cats?? Cats can only survive on protien from meat (I forget the fancy name for it) they have no use for any of the plant protiens, carbohydrates and minerals found in any part of the Kibble that dont come from meat, yet manufactorors put them in the food
Why is that then?? is it because they have built such a hype about a balanced diet and we cannot feed our pets ourselves that they have brainwashed people into thinking that a carnivore needs a diet balanced with carbs, fats, protine, and veg??

But as I did say there is NO point whatsoever studing wolves - wild or tame - our little domesticated wolves are bred from those most willing to work with humans, they are removed from their mother v young and do most of their development in contact with more humans than dogs

any study with wolves is totaly flawed - and that has already been proved

The wolf man although really interesting is so wrong it is not funny
He observed wolves and made up his mind about why they do what they do
He then got 3 wolf cubs and basically trained them to be how he thought wolves would be
but they were essentialy tame trained wolves

do you think true wild wolves would have licked Martin Clunes face?? an awsome experience but those wolves are no more like wild wolves than the tigers in the circuse were capable of returning to the wild


It is true the Jan Fennel (Ive read her book too!) and CM peoples methods work on many dogs, but the main reasons they work (IMHO) is that at least these people are working with the dogs, they are training them something - it is not ness the kindest way to go about it
Training the dog to get off the sofa is not asserting your domanance on the dog, its just training it a trick, giving it the operunity to work with you
the more the dog works with you and the more attention the dog gets the more it wants to work with you - and so its behaviour gets better
dosent matter whether you are teaching it to wait before you go through a door or teaching it to dance on its back legs - its all training

I am just sorry because of the interpritation of what is going on the dogs are punnished for the 'dom' behaviour rather than praised for doing a nice trick for their human

Definately.. some breeds are definately more pack orientated..
And those that say no, need to live with a few of the breeds who lean that way before they make up their minds..

As fascinating as I'm sure you are I can assure you that it's not all about you I didn't read your post let alone respond to it - you must have posted it while I was writing mine. My response was to the person I quoted before making my response. Don't you just feel such a twit sometimes But no harm done.

Absolutely. Live with my Beagles for a day or two if you doubt it I don't know how similar to a wolf pack (or any other kind of pack) the are though.

No thanks.. I live with malamutes every day.. and see it in action.. on a rather larger scale LOL

Agreed... I think some of the 'northern' breeds are more pack oriented than other dogs.

The Boxers aren't wolf-like/pack oriented at all. Between my boys there seems to be no clear leader, but both defer to me (and my OH)...

I think that as much as people research and live with wolves, we'll never know exactly how they place themselves within a family/pack, as we cannot measure or quantify some of the signals they send to each other.

Having never studied wolves in depth, but just going off what I have heard and read I feel some breeds have more of a pack mentality than others.
I think someone has to LIVE with a multidog pack to KNOW whats really going on with these guys, I am no way an expert, so what I am saying is ONLY based on my experience with MY dogs over the years, I have had dogs continually for approx 40-45 years firstly our family pets and then when getting married taking one of the family pets to my marital home, and when he died getting others, I have lived with one dog at a time and multiple dogs all in the home, never kenneld dogs, and I can honestly say I have never had any REAL problems as of yet (of course this could always change) although now I class myself as being more "educated" in the world of dogs, I have always had the thoughts that they ARE DOGS, I love them of course, and would do anything in my power to protect them, but they ARE my DOGS and as such treated as DOGS, I set down basic rules in my house, behaving in an acceptable manner, rewards will be forthcoming if you do as I wish etc, I DO have a hiarachy in my dogs although its not ALWAYS clear especially in the older two, Bailey is normally what I would class as the Alpha male, this could be down to the fact he is the eldest? but he always gets fed first, gets treats first, gets walked or whatever first, if not then I know he will take it out on the younger MALE get pushy with him, basically make his life hell, Bailey in turn has respect for our eldest Bitch, Willow, who to be honest I feel is probably the alpha of all my dogs put together, she is not aggressive in any way with the other, she is very laid back BUT she will NOT put up with any nonsence from ANY of the others, they are told very politely I might add not to continue what they are doing and behave, this is done mainly by her just laying her head over the back of the neck of the dogs in question, she will fluff herself up when doing this, it only takes a few seconds and the dogs stops whatever its doing, this includes Bailey, but this is a very rare occurance, to the outsider meeting our dogs all they see is a group of dogs that get on very well, I see something different on these meetings, I see Bailey insisting to be greeted first, I see Willow calmly coming forth and getting her dues, I see Timber holding back shivering he so much wants to get in front to meet the new person, but knows he should stay back, Savannah getting all giddy because she too wants to get to the front, but knows she should hold back a bit with Timber, and I see Aspen, who at the moment is not fuly out of her puppy licence with the other dogs, pushing in the middle of Bailey and Willow to get to the front and being given a warning grumble from the older dogs, once the inital meeting is over, they will all show way too much interest in the new person, till the excitemnt has worn off.

By my treating my dogs and understanding there is a pack thing going on and a hiarachy within them, helps me keep harmony, all five of mine are entire. we have only EVER had two incidents/fights), both times were between the boys because a bitch was in heat, and both times Bailey the Alpha male has taken unbrage at the Younger male (Timber)who incidentally is the bigger dog. showing interest in the bitch, when Bailey Thinks its HIS given right to be the one that has her if the opportunity arose. I could read tons of papers written on dogs and their behaviour, but why should I when I see it on a daily basis here at home, I can learn more from watching my dogs than ANY paper I read. I will continue to use the Alpha dog/pack theory, and continue with the NILF training programme, because up to now it had WORKED, should the occassion arise that this fails I will then try to find out what I did wrong and what rules have I not been applying.

Mo

wow, interesting post!
I only (just) have the two dogs, but I walk a pack every day and there's a definite hierarchy going on. Even though Loki is the eldest male in the pack and will 'check out' any approaching dogs, I would say that if there had to be an alpha it would be my mum's bitch Lottie. There have been a couple of disagreements in the pack between Lottie and another bitch Mollie who is quite bossy, but Mollie always gives way to Lottie now.

BUT, I don't buy into all this alpha stuff with regards to the humans. I think that dogs will sort out their own hierarchy in the pack, but humans are (or should be) above all that. I do not like the term 'dominant' to describe my relationship with my dogs, I think it sounds negative. My dogs see me as a good provider and leader. I don't muck about with their food. When I feed them I am giving them a gift, and I never feed or reward if their behaviour has been unacceptable. Dinner time is a positive thing and they take the meat from my hand. They are dogs and I am a human, they know I'm not a dog. They also know that it's MY house and my rules. But they respect me and I respect them.

Sorry, my computer had a fart and made it look like you were quoting me!! thats why I was confused as I was saying the same things as you - agreeing for a change

LOL you two are too funny!!!