I compete with a tiny Jack Russell - it's quite funny when we're warming up and hear people saying 'Oh look - a terrier!'

Jed doesnt do the whole prancing along with his weight on my leg looking up at me and he doesnt get close enough (yet) to present with his legs through mine. Will these type of things be penalised by many judges then?

If you read the KC Rules & Regs on Obedience:- The G regs



No where in the R&R does it say the dog must look at the handler, lean on the handler, etc etc. The presents are to be infront of the handler so a dog whose paws are behind the handlers feet isn't "in front"of the handler.

IMHO the prancy high stepping bum waggling position is neither natural nor happy, it is a taught style & therefore markable.

Some dog do have a natural high stepping action(some Goldens for example)but these dogs do not swing their bums to compensate for the taught head carriage. I don't like it but it isn't markable.

The top handlers do seem to be teaching their dogs to drive upwards instead of forwards & this results in the unnatural head carriage. I've never seen a collie work sheep with it's head pointing towards the sky !

Thats interesting to read but I dont think many judges follow that. Tilly does heelwork ok but doesnt work close to my leg, she tends to work at a slight distance from my leg. But teachers at our training club say in theory she shouldnt lose marks as she is consistently out, not coming in and out to my leg. Her distance stays the same from my leg all the time. The same with retrieve and recall. She doesnt come right in between my feet but sits at my feet. But we do seem to get marked down. Dogs that work very close and recall into the handlers legs always seem to be placed above us.

I must obviously be going to the wrong competitions! In ALL stakes, from pre- beginner to Championship C more marks are lost for stays than all the other exercises put together. This is also the case in Working Trials!

All judges in ALL discplines whether it is breed showing, Obedience, Agility, Working Trials, HWTM etc have their own idiosyncracies and what will gain you marks under some judges, will lose you marks under others; that is the way life is.

It was the same in the horse world in dressage, many judges could not judge breeds other than warm bloods even though other breeds were doing the exact same exercises the movements were not as extravagant.

Some judges will penalise dogs for looking as though they are having too much fun, some for their prancing etc etc.

Some judges will take into account the fact that not all dogs work like BCs and some will take into account the fact that fluffy dogs don't reveal some things that shortcoats do!

I have very many friends who compete at the highest level in Obedience with various breeds and to whom I go for training so I know this to be so in addition to going to watch various competitions myself.

Hence my original post, you have to accept that one judge's meat is another's poison.

I know one Ob Ch who never had their front paws on the floor on recalls or retrieves!

There are many successful breeds in Obedience but at the top end it is heavily weighted with BCs, you only have to watch Crufts each year to see how many other breeds make it (or rather do not)

I'm back doing obedience again after a break.
My funniest experience was being penalised for missing an about turn. The steward didn't call it as I "Was walking too fast for her to read" ???
This was with my GSD & I have to step out with him or he lags. I can still do pace changes though & it's never been a problem before 0r since.

Er In working trials if your dog moves at any time ALL points are lost in Obedience all tests have to have the points graduated.

In Obedience there are no "stakes"(other than special KCGC stakes)& in Pre-B to Novice total stay points are only 30(10/20)A & B-50(20/30), C70(20/50),failing scent costs a minimum of 30(30/40/50)

So if a dog fails it's stays totally in Pre B's it loses 30 out of 75 If it fails the DC it loses 50/scent points the same number as the down stay. In C it is far more likely for a dog to fail scent than to break both sets of stays & this is the case in most classes. I've had dogs in my Pre B classes that have lost all their stay points & still gained more marks than they have lost

I suggest you look at the marks available for each CLASS(not stake)to see that the stays do not form the majority of the marks.

In my last class(as a judge)I only had two dogs fail part of the stays(went down in the sit)neither lost more points than they did in the rest of the work they had already done.

Stays is usually the exercise that most dogs do fairly well.

Do you judge Obedience ? how long have you been completing & in which classes do you currently work ?

If the steward did not command you then you should not have been penalized, the judge would have intevened & corrected the steward's mistake.

You are working B & C then with the change of pace being part of the heelwork in these two classes ?

Er actually you are incorrect about dogs moving at any time in WT losing all their points, (I suggest you look at the marks available for the stays and the rules)

I use the word stakes = classes; it is known in english as a synonym!

I am aware of the marking system in Obedience, but I obviously failed to articulate my post sufficiently, I do apologise.


No I do not judge obedience, I only judge WT, as I said I have friends who compete and judge in Ch C and have Ob Ch and I have watched many competitions!

I think that means that the dog loses all it's marks if it breaks the down stay does it not ? I see they have amended the sit stay as it used to read the same-thought you as a judge would know I was partially correct(I've done WT many years ago, but never judged them)

The American's call their Obedience classes stakes not the British & stake is not a synonym for class in the English Oxford dictionary.

You've seen an Ob Ch that never has it's paws on the floor in retrieve or recall ?? Hm there is no recall to front in C only the recall to heel from the sendaway so I presume the dog floats around the ring must watch out for that next time I judge a C, I know it's not any of the Ob Ch I have judged in C(or before they got to C & became an Ob Ch & there are a good few of them)

Anyway I must be away to my bed as I'm off to watch out for that floating Ob Ch tomorrow