Crate training - does he need the toilet, or just wanting attention

Hi All,

I'm looking for some advice on crate training our puppy.

Last night was night number 4 with our new Flattie pup, Mac, who's 8 weeks old. He had diahorrea when we collected him on Friday and has had it since (due to breeder changing food)- he's been to the vet twice and they are not concerned and think its just an upset which will pass (hes on pro-kolin and eating only rice and chicken). He is toileting outside well during the day - only two accidents indoors which happened when I was distracted.

My issue is toileting and the use of the crate at night-time. Since night one, he settles within 10-20 minutes of crating at bedtime (between 10 & 11). I have then been getting up at 2.30am to let him out, he usually only pee's (waited for poo but nothing) then back into his crate, again he settles with 10-20mins then back up to take him out again at 5am (again always a pee and sometimes a poo). 3 out of the 4 nights he has poo'd in his bed in between these toilet times. He does occasionally cry during the night but I have ignored these as advised by most crate training articles and stuck to the toilet times.

After his 5am toilet trip he will not settle again - he cried from 5.20am until 7.20am this morning - but he hadnt messed his crate. I'm confused how you can tell if he's just crying for company or if his cries could indicate he needs out? His crate is in the kitchen, our bedroom is upstairs - I am not keen to move it into the bedroom unless absolutely necessary.

Any advice would be grately appreciated and if I've missed out any important information please let me know and I will provide.

Thanks in advance

Donna.

Hi Donna,
Can I ask why the breeder changed the food?

Often a pup can get a runny tum just through the sheer stress of leaving mum and their litter mates.

At 5am your pup thinks it is get up time, he doesn't want to go back to bed, he is getting hungry. I would stop waking him up at that time.
I would also stop waking him at 2.30. Leave him to sleep through and see what time he wakes you up to go out. When you go and let him out keep it dark and quiet, no play, no cuddles, I always used to sit at the side of the crate until pup dropped off to sleep again.

When are you feeding him and how much?

Flat Coats are the best...I have 2

Is it `just` attention if you`re 8 weeks old and have been separated from your mum? I`d have thought it was necessary reassurance. He will grow and become independent... but atm he`s a baby and needs warmth and company. JMO.

Hi Ramble,

The breeder received her food delivery however it was incorrect and they only sent her puppy Royal Canin rather than both 'puppy' and 'junior' so he was back on rich puppy food for 48 hours before we collected him. Bad timing!

On the vets advice we are feeding him only rice and chicken to try and settle his tum - which I think is definately starting to improve today I've been feeding him around 7am, 12noon and 5pm. Do you think that's OK?

The reason we woke him at 5 was because hubby was up and leaving to go to work then... he's a police officer so not on that shift again for a few weeks so we can avoid the 5am wake up as you suggest!

I'm happy to follow your suggestion - I do think he will sleep longer than he was when I was waking him and now that the diahorrea is improving I will worry less about waking him to go before he actually 'needs'. I was worried he would be distressed trying to hold the runs in!

ClaireandDaisy,

Thanks you for your reply... All crate training advice clearly states you shouldnt go to the crate when the pup is crying as this will confuse the messages he receives and create issues.. hence my confusion how to know if I was ignoring a cry to go to the toilet or a cry for company. From this post alone you can see there are many differing opinions and views on how to go about the first few weeks with puppy.. I am fully aware he needs love, affection and reassurance during this transition time especially - I was just keen not to comfort him at the wrong times and create future problems for us all.

He is young to only be on 3 feeds a day, usually they would be on 4 until they are 12 weeks. He may be hungry in the night...perhaps you could give him a small amount of supper?

There are as amny ways to train a dog to do anything as there are people willing to give advice.

Me...I haven't crate trained for a couple fo years now but have crate trained several pups. I don't go with the don't comfort them thing, partly because I have neighbours, whose patience amazes me at the best of times and partly because I have a child and partly because I am softer than a soft thing.
I would always go to the pup and let it out to pee...but NO playtime. I would have a lamp or some sort of subdued lighting in the kitchen and once pup had been out I would pick them up and pop them back in the crate and sit by it til they fell asleep. It worked for me. They also always had water in their crate and a distinct bed and newspaper area as well as a chew toy and a cuddly. I would also have something warm. A small hot water bottle worked for us, wrapped in 2 towels and put under a pillow and a piece of vet bed...okay not much warmth got through but in the winter it was better than nothing. People would disapprove of the hot water bottle, but I figured if the pup could get to it it would be making that much noise I would be up

It's really early days yet. Give him time.
Can I ask where he is from? I am so nosey..feel free not to tell me

My little fluffball came all the way from Peterhead - Littlehill Flatcoats. It was an interesting drive back to Glasgow with his skitty bottom I can tell you!

I have reduced his meal size slightly today so I can include a supper shortly. His crate is close to a radiator which is on low all the time - I think the hot bottle would be too much for him however I have been leaving the hob light on which gives a warm glow to the room.

I'm a bit confused whether to put paper in beside his bed in the crate - some books expressley advise against it but I can see why it would be a better option for him than going on his bedding (as he has done) if he just need to go.

I plan to try leaving him to wake me up to toilet tonight - i'll let you know it goes. I really appreciate your time and interest on this, Thanks!

Anyway.. the puppy training minefield goes on... on the bright side, within 4 days he sits when asked and has the best attitude to a vet I've ever seen!

It's personal choice at the end of the day, I always put paper in, alongside a cardboard box for a bed, it just gave pup 2 defined areas (although normally they slept on the newspaper ) It does make any accidents easier to clean though.

I hope all went well last night. I agree a hot water bottle would be too much! Does he have water? You can get bowls that attach to the crate which helps stop spillage.

He will get there with time. Does he go into the crate during the day?

Well... last night was a fantastic success!

After his supper he had a good while playing with us and his toys then some time outside so when we put him to bed about 10.30, he was ready for sleep. I sat with him as he fell asleep. I left the low light and the radio on and went to bed myself.. I couldnt believe it when I woke up at 6.45am and we hadnt heard a thing from him all night! He woke as he heard me moving around the house - he'd slept right through without messing his crate!

I think the combination of the late supper and us not disturbing him worked a treat -- I cant thank you enough for your advice!!

He does go in and out of his crate through the day and we feed him there so he has no problem with it however he's not happy to be locked in if he's awake. I have been doing this in short periods while im still in the room to encourage him that he's not being abandoned. He does settle with his kong and then i'll let him out again once he's quiet. I havent left him alone as yet - luckily our varying working hours mean he'll be alone very rarely although it will happen for a couple of hours now and again so we will need to convince him the crate is OK while he's awake!

I paper trained my previous puppies so this is the first time with a crate...I'm sure we will have our ups and downs... here's hoping last night wasn't a one off!

Fabulous news, I was wondering how he got on!
He will still have ups and downs with it..but I bet you feel heaps better for a good nights kip!

As for the crate in the day, always pop him in when he's asleep if you can or encourage him in when he is loking like he will settle down...
The best thing we ever did was keep the kongs ONLY for the crate when he was awake...remove it from him as soon as you let him out. If you go out at all, give him the kong then, take it away when you come in, he will soon associate the kong with you going and that being a good thing.

What's his name? Do we have photos???

His name is Mac, and here goes with an attempt to post a picture!