register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Petstalk
Dogsey Veteran
Petstalk is offline  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 01:56 PM
My thoughts are with you.

Something to think about also.
What was the reason for being hand reared? Do you know what nature his parents have? Romeo has missed out on a lot of learning, dog interaction, this could also have played a part in his behaviour.





.
Reply With Quote
Helena54
Dogsey Veteran
Helena54 is offline  
Location: South East UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,437
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 02:07 PM
Sorry but I'm afraid I wouldn't even have to think about it, so I agree with everybody else on this one. You really must follow your head instead of your heart on this one I'm afraid before another disaster befalls, maybe next time it won't be a dog!!! Sorry if I sound harsh, but there's times when you have to look further than your heart and how much you love your dog.
Reply With Quote
spot
Dogsey Veteran
spot is offline  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,724
 
03-01-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
A couple of questions :

Is Romeo neutered and what was the neuter / entire status of Max and the female [ you did`nt give her name, sorry to sound impersonal there ! ] ?

I ask that in case there are relevent dynamics as to why the problem was always with Max and only Max.

You say he often got through blockades to get to max - unfortunately something called Barrier Frustration only serves to increase a problem which sounds like exactly what happeneded here [ bearing in mind I can only go by what you have written ].

Was he ever kept separate from the female ?

I`m strongly inclined toward the initial problem being either direct hormonal cause [ if any of the three are / were entire ], or mental maturity kicking in given the age at which Romeo started having an issue with Max.

I`m not inclined to believe it was a deliberate out and out kill either, as he discontinued the attack, [ which was not actually witnessed anyway ], and was more likely just very unlucky and tragic that the jugular was caught, which can and does happen to some dogs even during clumsy play let alone in a fight I do think a lot of the reaction is based purely on his breed but all dogs have teeth and all dogs could cause this sort of injury whether intentional or not.

I feel that, had sensible crating been used rather than baricades which he had easily breached in the past, things may well not have escalated to this point or at least would have been far more easily managed and a tragedy avoided but hindsight of course is something which does`nt help right now

I certainly would not agree with those reacting with a death sentence when a good crate would solve a future potential indoor risk, [ and he has`nt been aggressive in any way to the female anyway - presumably no sign of a problem whatsoever between them throughout the two years of very clear persistant problem between Romeo and Max ? ], and a muzzle for walks is an easy enough option - why kill a dog when a crate for alone-time and a muzzle when sensible would prevent a problem which may well never happen again anyway and would at least give breathing space from making a knee-jerk decision right now ?

When you say he has never shown any other aggression apart from toward Max, I`m assuming you mean he has always been perfectly ok with other dogs on walks ? [ and its rare for any dog to always be perfectly ok with every dog they meet regardless of breed / size / age / gender ! ].
If not, again, an occasional muzzle usage is a perfectly reasonable alternative at the moment to death for a dog who sounds perfectly nice the rest of the time !

Is there no way he can live with you to take the pressure and heartache off your parents ? I know you say your apartment is too small but realistically, a dog can only take up its own bodyspace in one place at a time and I`ll bet your `small` apartment is likely to be far larger than typical UK flats / apartments
Physical room / space of a building really is not so much an issue as the quality of the life given to the animal/s within the home.

If you can take him home with you, you know him very well, you know the problem he had with Max and that it was limited aggression, [ as in not to any other dog and not to people ], but if you can`t, a good sized crate at your parents for times he would be unnattended with the female would be a sensible basic start.

Getting in a good behaviourist whiotruly understands aggresion issues, [ not one who thinks all dogs should be dominated and certainly none who use violent / pain / fear methods ], would be a very good move as any aggression really is best dealt with one to one by someone knowledgeable, outside of the situation, who is able to read dogs signals well, can read the interactions within the home between the dog and their human family as well as other animals present, and would be able to give a much clearer assessment than we can here without seeing him ourselves, and can help with any relevent health tests which may be pertinent [ especially thyroid panel which I feel is a check far too infrequently considered yet which is a primary cause of so many aggression issues either regardless of, or combined with, any other health or life experience causes as well as neuter status of all dogs involved in dog aggression cases ].

Which ever way you decide to go, I do feel for you all at the loss of Max, and for the uncertainty and confusion you must all be feeling - and the confusion / anxiety which Romeo may have been feeling for the last couple of years.

I do hope you are able to take some time, [ utilising any sensible safety precautions as anyone would do ], to find a resolution from which you and Romeo can move forward.
Excellent post Patch, agree with all this!

What I dont agree with is people saying it will/could be a human next - a dog aggressive dog is a very different thing to a human aggressive dog and Im surprised some people are not aware of this.
Reply With Quote
Vicki
Dogsey Veteran
Vicki is offline  
Location: In a land far, far away
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 41,933
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Thats your choice Sara, I dont shut dogs in crates, I do use them when a puppy is tiny, as I think they can be excellent for house training, and I also use one when the dog is on a show bench, but I dont use them if I am out, nor do I shut dogs in them all night. I dont have a problem with them at all, however my point was that some people think shutting a dog in a crate is the answer to every problem, not their use in daily life.
Dawn.
I did the same as you Dawn. Crate when young. However, the crate has never been taken down, 'cause he loves it so much - it's become his sleeping place
Reply With Quote
Jackie
Dogsey Veteran
Jackie is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
03-01-2007, 03:28 PM
What I dont agree with is people saying it will/could be a human next - a dog aggressive dog is a very different thing to a human aggressive dog and Im surprised some people are not aware of this
i think most people are aware of this, the 2 dont always go hand in hand.

I dont think any of us lightly say have a dog PTS , there are always alternitivs, (hopefully) but in this case what is the answer, the dog can not stay with the family, the owner cant have it at home. Now I can only speak for myself, if this dog was mine it would be PTS , not because it has killed the other dog, (it would be a deciding factor though) but IF it was not possible to keep the dog myself, there is no way I would pass her onto someone else, because the chances of it ending up in a fighting ring will be high, Once the dog is out of your ownership , you have no control over where it will end up. And I would see it as My job to do what is right for that dog.... seeing it PTS or possible it finding its way to the fighting ring, it is not a chance i would take. if I loved the dog I know which I would take.

I dont say this lightly, as the owner of a dog aggresssive dog, she is fine with people, but is a very nervous little girl , who I know if she was in the wrong hands , she would not have as good life she has now, She is mine I love her warts an all , but I have made arrangements for both my dogs if myself and my hubby died, my children would take my boy , and my bitch would be PTS , I will never take the risk that she would end up in the wrong hands, my kids could not cope with her needs....so the answer is simple, she would be PTS and SAFE!!!

Many people my feel this is harsh , and my not agree, but we do what we feel is right for our dogs. and if there was a tiny tiny chance any dog of mine could end up in a fighting ring, I know which way I would go.

And whether we like it or not this is a pitbull and if it ends up in the wrong hands , what sort of life would it have.
Reply With Quote
buyler
New Member!
buyler is offline  
Location: Stamford, CT USA
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 03:43 PM
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and comments on this tough situation. I think at this point we're past the possibility of giving Romeo up.... like a lot of you said, I can never be sure of the quality of life he'll receive in the hands of another.

Just a bit more background on the situation: I got Romeo at 2 weeks old because his mother died of Parvo (the people we got him from were dreadful pet owners, to us all the more reason to give one of the pups a good home). He was around another female pit for the first 2 years of his life with no incident, and was neutered at about 9 months old. The other (remaining) dog in the house is a 15 year old female Shephard named Lexie, and Romeo and she have been buddies forever. There has never been a sign of aggression between the two of them, however now that Lexie is getting older and is losing her hearing and sight, she's a bit more protective of 'her space'. What has happened is that doors have been put up to separate rooms and that will keep Romeo to himself when noone is home. Its a big house with a very large fenced in back yard, so they never get walked anyhow. Also Romeo is always tied up when outside without supervision.

I think this all boils down to a sense of guilt on my father's part. He inadvertantly left the door that separated Romeo and Max open, and came home to find what he did. Once he deals with his guilt and emotions, its probably going to be black and white.... either he can stand to look at Romeo every day or not. I feel the decision is going to have to be his.

Thank you all again so much, its helpful to hear all of your advice and thoughts.
Reply With Quote
Mahooli
Dogsey Veteran
Mahooli is offline  
Location: Poodle Heaven!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,297
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 04:13 PM
I hope it all resolves as soon as possible.
Becky
Reply With Quote
Helena54
Dogsey Veteran
Helena54 is offline  
Location: South East UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,437
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm sure you'll make the right decision, you sure sound like a sensible type of guy to me anyways! I wish you all the very best with this, it's a toughie for sure.
Reply With Quote
Patch
Dogsey Veteran
Patch is offline  
Location: Virtual Showground
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,518
Female 
 
03-01-2007, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Patch, not that I would disagree with you but crating a Pit Bull that wants to kill something wouldnt be the best idea in the world, either for that dog or the ones it wanted to get at. I dont believe in shutting dogs in crates, for some folk they are the answer to everything. I agree that we can only go on what we have been told, and the dog is dead now, poor thing.
Dawn.


I very rarely ever suggest crate use, if anything I usually speak up against their use as they are far too often a lazy owners tool and innapropriately used, [ I especially hate it when they are called a `training` crate - they dont train they only restrain afaic ].

In this instance I meant it only for the short term to give some immediate breathing space/time for when the dogs would be unattended if there was no alternative ie the OP taking the lad out of the parents home, I could have been clearer about that perhaps.
It was more a suggestion to give peace of mind for the ` right now ` and as there has been no aggression at all according to the OP between Romeo and the female I don`t get the impression that Romeo would be wanting to kill her !
Reply With Quote
Meg
Supervisor
Meg is offline  
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
03-01-2007, 06:16 PM
Hello Buyler as this is such a serious problem I will not try advise you in any way but I will if I may make a couple of observations based on the things you have told us.

I know from past experience that dogs can take a dislike to one particular member of their species, I once got badly bitten breaking up two dogs who hated each other, they were both stud dogs and kept well apart until one scaled a very high fence to reach the other.
It was just one of those things and never happened again. I doubt they would have killed each other though.

Most socialised dogs will try to avoid aggression if they can, the fact that Romeo was hand reared may be significant, it means he missed out on the dam/puppy/litter socialisation and his initial 'imprinting' was mainly with humans. I am not saying this makes all hand reared puppies predisposed to attacking, it is just a point to consider .

The fact that you say Romeo hated Max but no other dog indicated to me there may have been something in the body language of these two particular dogs that contributed to the dislike, when this dislike originally manifested itself, hard as it was I would have been inclined to rehome one of the two dogs at that stage.

Romeo may never attack another dog but we can never be sure, once he has attacked and killed he has passed a threshold and his levels of tolerance have been exceeded, his capabilities are now known.

Now the possibilities, what sort of place do your parents live in, how often do you get to see Romeo, could you build a kennel and run at your parents house to keep Romeo separate from the other dog (though I doubt very much he would touch her), how long are you away from home each day, do you have access to open countryside where you live now, how do your parents feel .

I can't comment on shelters over there, I would guess they are pretty full and may not be inclined to deal with a dog that has killed.

If it could be guaranteed that Romeo is kept away from other dogs at all times and muzzled in busy public places as a precaution, that you talk to a good behaviourist, taking account of your circumstances that the changes to Romeos lifestyle are not so restrictive that they make his life miserable I would say there is a chance for him if you are prepared to take that chance.

What we have to remember too is that although you and I would be prepared to take that chance, how would the laws in your country effect you if somehow an accident occurred again.

A terrible situation and all dog lovers will feel empathy toward you, I hope you manage to find a suitable resolution.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top