It's actually the other way around - dogs differ from us humans in this way.

Most people have a rough understanding of the different energy systems in humans - sprinters have well developed anaerobic (without oxygen) energy systems and endurance athletes have well developed aerobic (with oxygen) systems. A person that is a 'natural sprinter' will typicall be genetically blessed with a highly efficient anaerobic system - but anyone can develop and improve their anarobic energy systems. And of course, natural endurance athletes have superior aerobic energy systems. We also know that serious athletes eat specialised diets - high carbs in distance runners for example, and high protein in body builders.

Well, the same holds true in dogs in some respects.

HOWEVER, the big difference is that in people both the aerobic and anerobic system is fueled by carbohydrate. In dogs, the anaerobic systems is carbohydrate fueled but the aerobic system is fat fueled.

In both humans and dogs most work is carried out using the aerobic energy systems. As this system is fat fueled in dogs it's fine for dogs (expecially active dogs) to eat a high fat diet. Dogs such as sled dogs require as much as 14,000 calories a day so they NEED huge amounts of fat in their food to get sufficient calories.

However, dogs such as greyhounds typically do better on a low cal, high carbohydrate diet. The aerobic energy systems don't kick in much as they tend only ever to do short sprints. But it is possible for a dog to produce glucose (the fuel that's created from carbs) from protein. But it's less efficient. Studies have shown that greyhounds fed on a higher protein diet slow down.

So I would have thought it's more likely that your dog has some kind of food intollerance that's causing it problems - the breed *typically* does well on high carbs. Although that's racing dogs - I've heard that keeping weight on is a problem with aging greyhounds so they probably need more fat. There are just so many factors that it's crazy for anyone to say "this diet is best for all dogs". You've got to know your dog, understand the basics on dog nutrition & energy systems and then experiment.

And yes, I agree it's VERY interesting! What course are you doing?

Sorry, that's what I meant about the potatoes - it worsens existing conditions. I can't remember where I found out that info, but it was before I started raw feeding.

Sacrter, your posts leave my head spinning! You are obviously very well read and are very interested in dog nutrition. I hope your pup continues to do well on what you are feeding and wins lots of races.

I appreciate your reply and it is interesting, but I won't be feeding carbs to my dog any time soon. It's meat organs and bones all the way for him

Scarter, I read a book about sled dogs (Running North) and it was really interesting. Their dogs were fed on kibble when racing which they called 'doggy rocket fuel'. These dogs were racing for up to eight hours a day over a number of weeks, however, hence the huge calorie requirement. It's the same as how a professional body builder would eat lots of pasta and drink tuna milkshakes (Yuk!). It may serve them well in their sport, but it would not be a sensible diet for an average joe.

I don't believe that dogs need carbs, but as you say you feed your dog on a combination of Burns and raw meat, I think that's a pretty good alternative to raw feeding. I'm sure she's a healthy girl anyway.

wow scartetr, it is a long time since i have read such an interesting article.
it made me thinking...

Wow.. I think I understand (nutrition lessons tend to kill my brain for the rest of the day ) I didn't realise abou the dog's aerobic system and fat. It's amazing that they can use that amount of energy, 14,000
You know, I'd never be suprised if he had an intolerance.. He's always has a bit of a scurfy coat no matter what we feed him on, not to mention the baldness. He is very difficult to keep weight on, he's lost 9kg since we got him though that seems to have stabilized now.
I'm doing ND2 Animal Management

Just an idea, but when HUMANS go onto a 'raw' diet, they heavily detox, depending how healthy or unhealthy their diet was before, unhealthy obviously takes longer to detox, i've known some people say that it has taken them 5 year or more to detox fully when they have had years worth of junk food or lots of meat in their diets.
I know humans and dogs are not the same! BUT stomach upsets, weight loss, change in mood, headaches, dizzy spells, feeling cold, temperature are just some of the humans symptoms of detoxing. And these are not long term if the diet is stuck to, compared to the diseases and illnesses, sometimes terminal that people have managed to rid. I have to agree that it is also right for dogs. Just my opinion! but give doggy detox a thought!

Yes I have heard of doggy detox problems too!!

All the info on carbs and not carbs is interesting
But
I really dont think dogs need that kind of high carb diet
meat contains carbs protine and fat (and other things)
in enough quantities that wolves can run and run but also have short bursts of v intense energy
Cheetas can do short bursts fuled only by meat also

An ex of mine took on greyhounds that noone could get to run, he gave them short walks and fed them on a homemade meat and veggie diet with no added carbs and the dogs did much better

Scarter you are finding lots of interesting info
But what I am interested in is how long before the aerobic systems kick in and how much energy is used in that time
Then you would be able to figure out how much carbs a dog actualy needs



For reference it also depends on the types of muscles and the energy stored in them, usualy the first pounce/sprint of an animal uses the stored glucose in the muscles before the aerobic breathing helps convert energy and then you reach the point when your breathing cannot cope with the oxygen demand and the lactic acid system kicks in converting fat directly but making you feel rubbish - I was always told that was the anerobic part of exercise??

To be clear. All sources agree that dogs don't NEED carbs. Nor do they NEED meat for that matter. They are very adapatable when it comes to diet and can do well on lots of foods. But dogs are known to do better on certain diets, and because all dogs are different in terms of specialisation and lifestyle there won't be a specific diet that suits all dogs. It's one thing to state that your dog does best on diet X - it's an illogical leap to conclude from that that ALL dogs will do best on diet X.

We're not talking about a one-size-fits-all diet here. We're talking about the dietry needs of different dogs. One group of dogs are canine athletes. But other dog-types of interest might be overweight dogs (more than 50% of UK dogs according to the RSPCA), sedentary dogs, laid back dogs, hyperactive dogs....all will have different dietry needs and all are likely to do best on a different combination of fat, protein and carbs.

Some dogs probably will do best without any carbs.

Recommendations for the two extremes (sprint and endurance) are:

Sprint athlets (use food with 3.5 - 4 calories per gram dry matter) :

8 - 10% fat
22 - 28% protein
55 - 65% carbs

Endurance athletes (use food with greater than 6 calories per gram dry matter):

> 50% fat
28 - 24% protein
< 15% carbs

Studies have been caried out and recommendations given for intermediate athletes too.

It's interesting that even the endurance dogs (who struggle to get enough calories from their food) do better on some carbs. Carbs have less than half the calories of fat and protein, yet in dogs where the biggest challenge is to make he food calorie dense they still include low calorie carbs. In another book, Performance Dog Nutrition, the author (who has mainly studied sled dogs) writes:

Rembember, we're talking about canine athletes here. Not your typical pet pooch. Glucose can be manufactured from protein, so if the demands of the dog's lifestyle aren't that great it will get by on a huge variety of diets. But the greater the demands the more important it is to give the dog the food that's best suited to meeting it's demands for energy.

Now I know your dog's sport is Agility. The information provided on the clearrunagility website is backed up by my research. With regards to energy it says:

http://www.clearrunagility.co.uk/canineathletes.htm

Interestingly, we find that our 'built for endurance' beagle not only sprints faster on a high carb diet, but also has better endurance. And interestingly I've found a couple of sources that suggest that Beagles as a breed are different in this respect. A 1920's book written by a very experienced master of a famous pack of hounds claims that generations of experience of hunting various types of hound have shown that the very best diet for hounds in the hunting season (when they have to run fast for many hours a day) is oatmeal and horseflesh. Horseflesh is increadibly low in fat, meaning that the hounds were running on mostly carbs and protein. I've no idea why this should be, but as I say, it's something we've found through experience with our dog. It'll be interesting to see if our second beagle is the same.

But if you're feeding your dog a high fat, carb free diet and it's not getting fat then there's probably no reason to change. Now if your dog got very good at agility and highly competetive then you *MIGHT* find that he could improve his times a little by adding some carbs to his diet. But there's no guarantee. Your particular dog may well have evolved to do extremely well on a carb free diet.

Scarter
I really appreciate the info, but most of this is studies on kibble fed dogs
Saying any dog needs 60% carbs or more is just crazy

Do you have any links to the actual research?? How did they go about these studies
What foods were they giving? How long did they test changes for, was there a test group of dogs on the normal diet

I have found most studies to be biased or at least very flawed

I guess over a period of time it is possible to optimise the diet your dog is on to get the best performance from that dog from that diet
Slowly tweeking the ratios of carbs, fats and protien
But that is only getting the best perfrormance for that diet that they are on

In a dogs lifetime you would not have time to asses lots of big changes to diet to affect performance
Totaly switiching from kibble to carb free or back again is a big stress to a dogs system and it takes a while before you truly see the results

My dog is 1st and foremost a pet
We both love agility but his health comes way above any rosettes so I will not be putting him on a diet that did not suit him

But anyway
He is one of the fastest dogs in the park giving the collies a run for their money
He has long term endurance and can still have the zoomies after a 3 hour walk - and an explosive sprint speed fast enough to catch rabbits and ducks (although I have never encouraged that)

Since changing to raw his concentration has been far better, so much so that at 1 year of age he got 3 clear rounds at the clear run fun show - and was 5th in one run (see my post on that last year of how he didnt start training till 10 months and in that comp we still had lowered contacts and low jumps - I dont advocate underage dogs training - but he was still up against grade 1-3 dogs)
He was much camer in the house and his coat and skin were in a far better condition

and better still he ate!

Feel free to optimise your diet as you want for your dog, but remember just because it is in a book or on the interenet does not mean it is good advice or a proper clinical study

I would be v weary of your book from the 1920s
You say yourself that horsefat is low in fat
did he try any other meat?? I am guessing that they used horse and possibly rabbit because that is what they had cheep around at the time, so as those meats are low in fat then they needed to add the carbs to get the energy, it was not an optimised diet - just optimised for horseflesh

Oh and last thing - most people feeding raw find their dog has much better body condition - including weight
Your studies would suggest that all our dogs are running to fat
You are welcome if I see you at any show or training day to feel Ben and see what the vet saw - he is in great shape and if he wasnt I wouldnt risk his joints with agility

If you read what I've actually said you'll realise that I am not suggesting that your dog isn't on the best possible diet for him. I have in fact made it very clear over and over that I believe that all dogs are different and that what works for one quite possibly will be very bad for another.

I'd recommend the following if you want to learn more about nutrition for canine athletes (These are the books that I quoted from in my post above. I did state the source in the thread I originally posted this in on carbs and the canine athlete):

Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition by Hand, Thatcher, Remillard & Rodebush. There are about two full pages of references (80 in total) at the end of the Canine Athlete chapter. In actual fact, most studies are carried out on the two extremes in the canine world - the greyhound and the sled dog. As these types of dogs are traditionally fed home prepared diets (often with some kibble, and often with raw) it's far from the case that only dogs on kibble diets are studied.

Also Performance Dog Nutrition - Optimize Performance with Nutrition by Dr Jocelynn Jacobs. (Jocelynn Jacobs is a vet who breeds and races Alaskan Malamutes, so her research and studies are mainly of sled dogs).

But at the end of the day studies and other peoples recommendations and theories will only help to get you in the right ball park. If you find your dog does well on diet X then you'd be a fool to change because studies, someone on the internet or someone that wrote a book says that diet Y should be better.

We know for a fact that dogs do extremely well on a whole variety of diets. Studies help us to understand why certain dogs do better on high carbs, high protein or high fat. If your dog fits a particular profile it might be worth trying the diet that the studies recommend. But as there are so many factors involved there is no guarantee that the diet that studies have found works best for most dogs in a given category will work for all in that category.

You say that your dog does great on a high fat diet. I believe you. Mine does great on a diet with 60% carbs (Burns Mini Bites). MY dog was running the legs off others in the park. She was among the top three fastest dogs on the race track by about 9 months old. She's in fantastic shape. You can conclude that one of us is lying, or you can conclude that different dogs thrive on different diets. Some need carbs and some don't. Studies and anecdotal evidence help to get us in the right ball park, but only trial and error will tell you what works best for you. Most people stop experimenting when they find a diet that their dog is thriving on. And the form (raw, cooked, kibble, tinned) and composition (fat, protein, carb) varies from dog to dog.

And I STRONGLY agree that just because you read it on a website, book or hear it from a friend it doesn't make it true!