yup I put the link up often. I was kinda lost in it again looking at the coat types there, the curly coat is amazing

See the thing with eye colours really annoys me - why dont people question the standard? Bluey green eyes are lovely, and I think they would look lovely on a CC
There is a collie round here with v light blue eyes and she gives me chills when she looks at me - she is stunning

Thanks, yes that was interesting. Also found this about eye colour though that I also thought was interesting.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/eyes.htm

I have seen a few light eyed CC - mainly them with light/lack of pigment. Its really not my thing. But I guess its personal choice. I love to see CCs with the blackest possible eyes - with good eye pigmentation - they melt me.

A breeder over here has quite often produced green/blue eyed puppies - which I did not like... I have not seen one with such light eyes in the ring over here. Although abroad the blue/green eyes are often shown..If they are successful or not I do not know.

Here are two examples of blue eyes - one puff, and one hairless.. Really not my thing





The standard calls for:

Eyes
So dark as to appear black. Little or no white showing. Medium size, almond in shape. Set wide apart.

Yes thankyou that was also interesting. Basically usualy the eye colour is due to the merle or the white factoring but it seems clear from the photographs that border collies also have the gene for blue eyes in dark coated dogs - and therefore why is it a fault when it is natural?

Oh I like the top one loads!! thankyou for posting them
I guess it can be what you are used to seeing too because many people say how they didnt like the look of a rotty with a tail - but now they like them because they are used to them

I have no problem with personal preference - we all like different things, i just w onder why a totaly healthy dog would be removed from the gene pool based on an eye colour that was prob removed from the gene pool just because it is rare and overlooked

Eye Color



The ongoing debate about Crested eye color can viewed as a choice of either attempting to selectively breed for an ideal type, or settling for the genetic roll of the dice.

Blue eyes, either complete or partially blue, are genetically linked to Waardenberg’s Syndrome a hereditary form of deafness already a known problem in other breeds that permit blue eye color.

English breeders are apt to take a less lenient approach to eye color. In the late 1970s and early 80s, walleye became an almost epidemic problem in the breed. Due to the breed’s small population and highly restricted gene pool, virtually every line was affected with the problem, and at that point, breeding it out was nearly impossible. The problem has been reintroduced into the American Crested gene pool through recent imports



Other eye colors green, yellow, hazel do not pose the health concerns associated with blue eyes but their cosmetic drawbacks are obvious.

The top ones eyes to me are awful. Truely awful. The shape, colour and amount of white showing!

I see what you mean though, we all like different traits in different breeds and all have traits in breeds that we dont always have to have a certain way.

On a decent CC website it states that blue is not liked due to the health related issues although the green ect are not known to cause health related issues. So again begs the question why its not accepted. I know I say I dont like it which I dont but if it causes no health issues, I see exactly where you are coming from.

Hmm yes I see what you mean, her eyes are very WIDE open, I was just looking at the colour with the colouring of the dog
I totaly agree if there is a health reason why something is excluded then thats a good reason, but I do wonder with other things

Like double merle dogs often are the lethal whites - with problems like deafness
But you get white facotored collies who do not have problems (although like merle to merle matings you shouldnt breed them to another white facotered dog) but the border collie breed standard states that white should not predomonate in the colours
So why exclude white factored but not merle?

No she said when she was there that is what she saw - not that people ON HERE's dogs were like that
She commented on one foto and then retracted the comment when the owner said the dog was smiling

You were not where she was when she was there so you cannont say she did or did not see overheated stressed dogs
She didnt say YOUR dogs were - just the ones she had seen, and she didnt like to see that

and it is a fair point to say who would want to put their pet tru that torment
Noone would, and you are all happy that the conditions your dogs are in are fine, you all make sure your dogs are always attended and happy
so the comment was not aimed at any of you

the point of Crufts and any other animal assessment is to compare the stock from one breeder against another - I breed Groenendaels a numerically small breed- I live in an isolated rural environment (the middle of the Lincolnshire Fens) and if it were not for dog shows I would very rarely meet with another example of my breed and thus be unable to compare what I am producing against what other breeders are - without Crufts and other dog shows we would all simply be breeding our own interpretation of what the breed should look like in isolation from each other- we would be unable to see the breed 'as a whole' be unable to view possible stud dogs and see what they have produced and be unable to view dogs from other countries that we may need to use to widen our gene pools....and by seeing them 'in the flesh' we can get a truer picture of how they would improve any faults we may have in our own lines - tell me how else we could do this ?

Every breed of animal is assessed in this way - go to an Agricultural, show and you will see cattle, sheep, pigs, goats etc etc all being assessed against their own breed for exactly the same reasons -why only this witch hunt against dog showing ?



I go to Crufts because I know I will see the best examples of my breed all in one place - and a high placing amongst such good competition gives me some insight into the quality of what I am producing ....all invaluable stuff to me as a breeder !

But I wouldnt see the best examples of border collies if I went
Thats what sheepdog trials are for

Right Pidge, I'll try and catch up with everything outstanding.

Firstly, yes sorry, I did miss your post apologising for the comments about show dogs being put through torture (but apologising for something doesn't mean you didn't say it in the first place)...

That's not the point. We all post in haste, I've admitted that and apologised. If my apology means nothing because I said it in the first place then what is the point.

You next said that you had proved all your other facts, the majority of which were put in this post:



THe Iams thing - fair enough, its consistent with your principles.
The cruelty cases for judges and exhibitors, what evidence do you have on this? Do you say they were allowed to participate with the KC having full knowledge of the convictions? Or if not, is it that a small number of people who have won and/or have judged have subsequently been convicted?
I admit, its not good news to hear (I did a google and found a handful of cases over the past 10 years), but I don't see how Crufts/the KC are to blame?

It's not about Crufts being to ''blame'' so much as my feeling that they have a responsibility to ensure that this kind of thing is condoned (i.e. they are not seen to be associated with it). There should be better vetting done by the KC of all accredited breeders. That is a fact. Unfortunately it is a fact that whilst compared to all over the past ten years it is a small number, the crimes are big enough to raise alarms and put doubt in people's minds (mine) about the ethics of Crufts (KC).

The breeding issues. How do you know exactly what is and isn't being done, are you purely following what Jemima H says? Do you know what is/isn't wrong with all breds and what is being done? Jemima H didn't cover a fraction of what is being done in her programme.

There aren't any reports I could find about what changes are being made. The only thing I could see was that this year, for the first year ever they will health check best in group winners with a non-impartial vet. I'm not saying he is automatically discredited, but it still seems abit weak to me when there is so much more they should be doing. The GSD for example, how many people are on board with how this dog should look now in terms of welfare? All it takes is one judge and vet to be on side with the sloping back and it's through. (An example only).

As for the other bits about hot warehouses, 12 hours tied to the bench, the dogs being stressed etc. the show goers have given enough proof that this is not the case.

No they've given their view on it and I've given mine. The two don't agree but they are our point of views.

On to the links you posted:
Iams - again, I've got nothing really to say on that; its your personal principles, which is fair enough.

Jemima's blog.
Well I'm sorry but i have no respect for this woman. She's in a positin where she could've done so much good but I think she has failed big time. Yes, some changes have been made (a speed up of what whas happening anyway) but I truly believe that the backlash of the public's perception of ALL pedigree dogs and breeders has given the puppy farmers cross-breed factories a massive boost.

And she also admits that the evidence she has shows that many purebreeds are more healthy than crossbreeds (based on longevity of life) its just that overall, the average for crossbreeds is slightly higher than the average for purebreeds.

yes sensationalism makes people sit up, but at what cost? You think it is sometimes right - was Tony Blair righ to sensationalise WMD to support what he wanted to do in Iraq?

For a documentary to be taken seriously it should always give both sides a fair go and this is something she didn't do (and openly admits it).

I think I've covered all your points, but if I've missed anything, let me know.

That's not a serious question surely

Whats the point of Crufts, if not to make money..

Which bit of Crufts is that directed at?

Perhaps, but was working? Then said she didnt understand anyway.

They are stunning looking Collies, but they would not stand a chance in the ring.

Nowhere near enough coat for starters.

I agree with BMF, you would not be seeing the best examples of border collies, a dog should be the whole, not just the look.

Wasn't aware you had specified last year---must have missed that.

I read that you said you could NOT buy Iams at Crufts.

You certainly could when I went and you will be able to this year.

Maybe we have differing ideas on unpleasant.

Eukanuba used to have Iams in brackets next to it on its adverts I think I remember as well (from agility). Might be dreaming that!

rune

Collie----brains? LOL

How dare farmers breed a dog that can work rather than a barbie doll collie!

rune

Ive been to crufts and found it kind of boring at the time but dont mind watching it on tv being a student on a college trip we never got to see the actual show. I don't support crufts after a documentry described like dog mentioned in the previous post was shown like how some bulldogs have such squashed noses because someone in crufts declaired they should have more wrinkles which would indeed produce an healthy dog which will suffer for snobbery. Im all for the perfect dog but not at the cost of the welfair for the dog hence im not a crufts fan.

This was documentry was to do with crufts and someone had mentioned in a previous post i read that a dog which was eventually picked for best in show had not long before passed out because it ran round the ring -.-

this was a long time ago but its obvious crufts does not care about the welfare of its constestents anymore then the breeders who enter them do. You may get the perfect looking dog at shows like crufts but is it worth the animals health or even life???

I share this view which is why I'm finding this recent discussion so interesting. I just wish some of you could tell me more about show Vs working Springers too (much as I love Collies)



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