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Twigs
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22-11-2014, 09:39 PM
People say that our cows and sheep would almost not exist if we did not eat them but why shouldn't they be bred to provide milk for drinking and making cheese and yogurt etc? Goats can also provide milk and hens provide eggs.We can keep pigs as our pets as we do our dogs, they are just as intelligent. That would be my dream and I suspect a lot of other peoples dream too.
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tawneywolf
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22-11-2014, 09:51 PM
Vegans don't have milk or eggs though do they, and isn't King Pit advocating we all become either veggies or vegans.
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Gnasher
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23-11-2014, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
I love animals just as much as the next person, but I really feel we should be looking more at how the animals we eventually eat, or those that supply us with milk and eggs for instance, lead their lives and also the manner of their deaths. Campaigning for people to stop eating their meat or their products can only lead to these animals no longer existing at all, if we all jumped on the bandwagon that is. Ensuring they do not lead a life of pain or misery and meet a fear free end is surely the way to go
Thats about it june. Although i would prefer to be a veggie i dont think its healthy, we are omnivores not herbivores. But like you i hate the way farm animals are raised and slaughtered. It is appalling how ghastly the abbatoir process is and you're so right, we should be campaigning for better husbandry for farm animals and not wasting time and effort on trying to persuade everyone to turn veggie.

great post june!
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gordon mac
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26-11-2014, 10:22 PM
Just read post#41. Simple agricultural fact. To have milk from any animal you have to have it lactating. This means it has had to give birth to start the process. In this strange Utopia what would happen to the calves/lambs/kids born to mothers who were to be milked. The females doubtless could be kept to ensure the cycle continues - but the unwanted males - now there's another question!
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tawneywolf
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26-11-2014, 10:29 PM
But in this 'ideal' world, there wouldn't BE any animals because we' all be veggies, therefore no animals because we'd need the land to grow stuff
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Florence
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26-11-2014, 11:43 PM
On a side note, I just wanted to add something about the teeth bit.
The argument for a lot of people is that we humans have the teeth of omnivores, meaning we have both molars for grinding foliage as well as incisors and canines for killing prey and tearing meat.
Now, ignoring the fact that our canines are extremely underdeveloped and wouldn't be of any use to kill an animal or to tear raw meat from bones, teeth are not always a reliable way of determining an animal's natural main diet (look at the panda, for example).
If you look at our close relatives, the great apes, specifically gorillas, you'll see they have large canines yet they are almost exclusively herbivores (and have been for a long time).
Canines teeth are also weapons in certain species and don't necessarily indicate that they're predators.

I just wanted to add that, because unlike actual predators like dogs, cats, wolves etc. we humans don't need to eat meat to be healthy. We can thrive on a variety of foods, so it's really up to the individual what they feel comfortable eating and what they like.

What I don't understand however is the current need of many people to eat meat for every meal of the day!
The demand for meat in the world is rising and it's causing problems for the environment, for the wellbeing of farmed animals and is a main cause for a variety of deadly diseases (which, instead of being tackled by the root, are then treated with medicine developed through research usually done on animals).
Not to mention the fact that much more food could be produced for the world if intensive animal farming was replaced by vegetable farming, helping people in the developing world.
After all, eating meat in large quantities is only for the privileged in this world, those living in our wasteful society.

I've got to say I wouldn't think eating meat was such a problem if all animals were treated with respect, were given a life according to their needs until their death and if people weren't so driven by their 'wants' that they completely disregard or ignore the suffering of other sentient beings.

PS: Yes, I'm obviously a vegetarian.

PPS: My dog is fed on raw meat.

PPS: I'm sure there are loads of people here who eat meat responsibly! Please don't see my post as an attack on you!
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halfpenny
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27-11-2014, 03:45 PM
I am vegetarian and have considered being vegan, however I don't believe veganism is a 'natural' diet for humans, they need to be supplemented for vitamin B12, which makes me wonder if it can be supplemented properly. Saying that lots of vegan probably have healthier diets than the rest of us due to the research they have to do and many meat eaters eat junk food anyway.
I don't think there will ever be a world without carnivorous animals, because there will always be herbivorous ones..... The more specialist species may die out but the oppertunists won't, we will always have mice and rats for a start!
I don't think preaching at all people to become veggies or vegans is the way to go, as said the human world is never going to convert, so it's more important to dwell on the lives and deaths of those animals they eat.
I have pet pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, ducks, turkeys, rabbits and a goose. They are all individual, they live many years longer than they are allowed to in the farm industry, we recently lost an 11 year old pig, a 10 year old hen and a 16 year old sheep. They were wonderful creatures. We have a broiler hen, she's now 12 months old, they are usually culled at 3 months, the manipulation that has been done to her type is appaulling, she is huge... She was huge by 3 months old, growing too fast for her joints. We have had to take her out of the winter wet and mud because she cannot cope with it. She is not in pain but is ungainly and vulnerable if free range..... These are the things that should be addressed, rather than berating people who eat meat.
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Wolfwitch
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27-11-2014, 03:53 PM
Regardless of where you end up on the for/against argument, it's a scientific fact that our big brain didn't start developing until we started eating meat on a regular basis, so being able to even have this argument, online, using technology and using the written word, we owe it all to animal protein

I wonder if we would revert back to our primal form eventually if we went back to being herbivores for a good couple of generations
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Florence
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27-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Wolfwitch, where did you get that scientific fact from?
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Wolfwitch
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27-11-2014, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Wolfwitch, where did you get that scientific fact from?
I guess you can always find "scientific" evidence for or against any argument, but :

... One of the best-known attempts to solve this central riddle of human evolution is the ... a species'
energetic needs of digestion, it should be able to evolve a relatively larger brain. ... suggested that
early hominins evolved larger brains as a dietary shift towards more meat
Navarrete, Ana, Carel P. van Schaik, and Karin Isler. "Energetics and the evolution of human brain size." Nature 480.7375 (2011): 91-93.

You should be able to find various articles just googling it, but I appreciate that any "scientific" evidence is only as good as the next research just around the corner to prove different

It was more a lame attempt to add some levity to the argument
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