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08-05-2009, 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by Patch 
She never tried to `rule` me by taking over anything either, but she certainly ruled my world and my heart in every wonderful way
Wys
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08-05-2009, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=51272
Wys
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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08-05-2009, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Thankyou for taking the time to answer, hope you enjoy your pup night
I have highlited the bit I totaly totaly agree with - a pack is a breeding pair of wolves and their offspring
You seem to be saying that to this pack lone wolves who want to be alpha will join the pack and eventaly challange for position?? but you are also saying that a wolf that wants to be alpha would be chased off and killed by a pack
- sorry - I am not trying to trick you here I am just trying to understand your way of thinking here
I believe that the pack is the breeding pair and their cubs and older cubs
There are no challanges for the alpha position because when the males become sexually mature they leave or are driven from the pack
and when the females are sexually mature a lone wolf comes and pairs off with her and they go away to form their own pack
In unnatural situations like where humans have formed the pack or something like that then the situation can and will be different because that is unnatural to the wolf
From an evoulutionary point of view it just dosent make sense for only a very select few animals to be able to breed - pretty much all female animals who live to sexual maturity will breed
What behaviours did your dogs show that gave you the idea they were trying to take over and how did you deal with these behaviours??
So our lone wolf will either be killed, accepted, driven off but not killed or ... if he is an aspiring alpha ... will fight the beta enforcers and possibly the resident alpha and kill or be killed. It has to be remembered though that there are few alphas, so this lone wolf may not be an alpha, and may not want to stage a take-over, he may just want to join the relative safety of a pack. A wolf living on his own is not going to live long.
In a wild wolf pack, the breeding alpha female actually suppresses the oestrus of the rival females I understand ... how this is done, God only knows, but it is a known fact. So I am not sure it is accurate to say that all female wolves are breeders or potential breeders, some of them will have their oestrus suppressed by the alpha female. Inbreeding within the wolf pack does not happen, so the success of the species depends on those females that either are covered by a rogue lone male, or who run off with a rogue lone male and form a new pack.
I think my post is very muddled, but I hope you understand what I am saying Ben !
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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08-05-2009, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by Patch
You and me both. I have only ever had one who could have been considered the nearest definition of a canine alpha, she was my oldie who passed away at 19 1/2. Never did she need to exert physical power - good job really as she was a little old lady, but my others showed respectful deference to her in all things, none ever tried to challenge her, none ever tried to take her food, if they were on the sofa and she wanted to get on she only needed to look to the spot she wanted and the others would dive off for her, no fearfulness involved just pure respect toward her as a matriach type figure.
Her personality was always calm, relaxed, confident in herself without needing to put on shows of bravado, and she had a wonderful calming influence over scared, bolshy or even aggressive dogs wherever she went out and about and with any I fostered. She to me was the epitome of what could be considered `alpha`, and yes a dog like her with her qualities as a `gentle leader` for other dogs is rare indeed among canines, she was one of a kind for sure.
She never tried to `rule` me by taking over anything either, but she certainly ruled my world and my heart in every wonderful way
Did you breed from her ?
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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08-05-2009, 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Gnasher you have lost me yet again, I fail to see what point you are trying to make here
Ok I said earlier today..
..you then you did a search and posted this older post where I said much the same thing that bitches sometimes regurgitate..
..so what is your point, that I said the same thing today that I said previously
???Gnasher I find it very difficult to understand you at times, your reasoning seem to wander all over the place.
Correct me if I'm wrong Mini, but wasn't it you who said that bitches don't regurgitate for their pups ? I did a google search, and I have to admit, I couldn't find any scientific evidence for this, except for a posting on Dogsey - which was from you, explaining to someone that bitches DO regurgitate !!
I am very confused here too !!
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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08-05-2009, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Gnasher, you keep going on about wolves when this thread is about dogs and something else I don't understand, when did Hal become a high % wolf cross .I thought he used to be a Utonagan
He certainly didn't look much like a high % cross wolf in the photographs on here , there was no mention of him being anything other than a Utonagan in old posts ..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=51272
Mini, you are seriously going off thread !! You may not know this, but until recently, wolf crosses were illegal in this country. Now, I may not be the brain of britain, but stupid I am not, so we were hardly going to go round telling everyone that Hal was a wolf cross, so, the simplest and safest thing to describe him was as a Utonagan.
I shall ignore your totally unscientific remark that Hal does not look like a high %. Doubtless, it is this that kept him safe for 10 years ... plus our discretion.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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08-05-2009, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Yes I agree Heather
he is indeed a beautiful dog .Thank you Patch for clearing that up
I was sure I had read Hal was a Ute and was surprised by all the references to him being a high % wolf. I was also looking at an old CM thread for video links and I noted Gnasher stated.. ''I've never owned a hybrid ... where did you get that from? Wrong Gnasher, wrong Hal. '' ''
God, I wish !! I would have sung it from the rooftops''
Mini : I have never owned a hybrid. I have owned a wolf cross. There is no such thing as a wolf hybrid.
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08-05-2009, 09:02 AM
I then asked a lady who used to have corgis, and she agreed. My friend, who has GSDs, agreed and a single bloke who comes from a farming family and has always had working collies agreed.
So here we are in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere, with a random collection of doggy people who all say that they are aware that female dogs will regurgitate for their pups ... not always, not a lot, some more than others, but the general concensus was that it happens frequently.
I'm confused here, because I believe you Wys, but I believe my friends too ... and I most certainly believe the evidence I have of my own eyes in non-wolfy breeds, as well as wolfy.
Wys
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08-05-2009, 09:11 AM
All the bitches I have been involved with who have had litters have never exhibited this behaviour.
RE: Alphas in the wild....
If alphas are as rare as SE seems to be saying...how do packs cope.....If 2 lone omegas met in the wild would they start a pack and reproduce? Or would they wait as (in this theory) they are not programmed to do so?
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08-05-2009, 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Wys : I went to the pub last night and living in a small rural village, many people who go in there own dogs. I asked a local who has labradors for shooting would he agree with me that bitches with pups frequently regurgitate for them given half a chance if breeders didn't at least try to stop them. He said yes of course, why.
I then asked a lady who used to have corgis, and she agreed. My friend, who has GSDs, agreed and a single bloke who comes from a farming family and has always had working collies agreed.
So here we are in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere, with a random collection of doggy people who all say that they are aware that female dogs will regurgitate for their pups ... not always, not a lot, some more than others, but the general concensus was that it happens frequently.
I'm confused here, because I believe you Wys, but I believe my friends too ... and I most certainly believe the evidence I have of my own eyes in non-wolfy breeds, as well as wolfy.
Wys
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Hi Gnasher
I did a quick search and came up with the following - I know it's Wiki but there are references to follow up (I haven't had a chance to check them).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog
Some sources say that dogs differ from wolves and most other large canid species by the fact that they do not regurgitate food for their young, nor the young of other dogs in the same territory.[82] However, this difference was not observed in all domestic dogs. Regurgitating of food by the females for the young as well as care for the young by the males has been observed in domestic dogs, dingos as well as in other feral or semi-feral dogs. Regurgitating of food by the females and direct choosing of only one mate has been observed even in those semi-feral dogs of direct domestic dog ancestry. Also regurgitating of food by males has been observed in free-ranging domestic dogs.[85][87]
^ a b c d e f Coppinger, Ray (2001). Dogs: a Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution. New York: Scribner. ISBN 0684855305
<li id="cite_note-Pal-84">^ a b Pal SK (January 2005). "Parental care in free-ranging dogs, Canis familiaris". Applied Animal Behaviour Science 90 (1): 31–47. doi:10.1016/j.applanim.2004.08.002.
<li id="cite_note-86">^ Eberhard Trumler, Mit dem Hund auf du; Zum Verständnis seines Wesens und Verhaltens; 4. Auflage Januar 1996; R. Piper GmbH & Co. KG, München
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