Oh dear! Welcome to the club - there are now three of us!! Whether you have a cage or not, the DT behaviourist's solutions that I posted yesterday may help.

We started back at the beginning today with Jimmi, following her instructions to the letter. Instead of going out through the back door, which we normally do, and therefore past the window so that he sees us disappearing, we went out through the front door. Just for one minute. Jimmi yelped and barked, and we came back in - totally ignoring him and sat at the kitchen table. He scrabbled frantically in his cage, thinking we were going to let him out, but after a short while settled down on the screwed up heap of his bedding, and relaxed enough for us to go through it all again. Same thing happened. The third time, he was silent.........completely quiet. We went back in to the kitchen and let him out of his cage, whereupon he went into welcome overdrive. We steeled ourselves and just muttered "good boy" and for a full five minutes ignored him which I have to say went very much against the grain BUT, and this is a big BUT, it seemed to work. The second session that we had following this regime, Jimmi was much calmer. I know that one day does not a cured dog make, and we have a very very long road to travel. After all, a minute outside the front door is a long way away from being out for half an hour or longer!!! I am feeling more positive though that with Helena's advice and input, and the behaviourist's comments, we may see a light at the end of the tunnel.

1cutedog - I cannot tell you how sorry I am, and I do know exactly how disappointed and fed up you are. We both know what it is like.

This is a long hard road for all of us, with no quick easy solutions and I for one have been guilty of taking things too fast I think.

I just thank all the gods that Dogsey exists, because at least we can whine and moan (as loudly as our wretched ungrateful dogs!) and compare disasters and the odd triumph - it certainly helps me no end.

Where is the darling Helena??!! She needs to know and come to terms with the fact that there are now three of us for her to keep calm and sane

Bitkin that sounds like progress with Jimmi and that in one day. Just think what could be achieved in a week.

Have you been using the Bachs flower remedy and if so do you think it helps?

Yes Cardaph, welcome to the club. Bet it's one club you wish you weren't a member off.

I will have to start doing that with Lana. I am so going to miss my 30-45 minutes without her each day. The last couple of weeks is really the first bit of freedom I've had in 7 months. She was lying on the floor while I was listening to the tape, and I turned around and said what a carry on to have just cos I left you for a little while. I swear the way she's acting today it's almost as though she's embarassed

I wish I had thought of taping her months ago, it was my neighbour who said he had taped his dog which gave me the idea. I feel bad that I've been leaving her thinking she was okay when she really is not, she sounded so distressed.

I haven't been nipping in and out today but will start tomorrow. Oh my sore knees if I have to go up and down those stairs a dozen times a day That's the thing with staying here, she'll be at the door listening so there's not a lot of point of me just standing outside the door so I'll really have to use the stairs.

It's also a worry being on my own with her. What if I got ill or something, had to go to hospital or my dad has to go and I would need to visit him, how on earth would she cope.

1cutedog, you have voiced the one big worry that I have....what if??? There are so many emergencies that may arise which necessitate a dog being left at home. Even though you are alone, the situation could well be exactly the same for me if either my husband or myself became hospitalised, or if there was some other problem that a dog could not possibly become involved in.

I know that we made progress of a tiny sort today, but I am not fooled and know that there is an awful long way to go. I actually think that Jimmi just thought "they will be back in a few seconds" and of course we were! The process of drawing it out will probably take weeks, and if he becomes distressed we have to start all over again, so I am not celebrating believe me I have finally got it into my thick head that there is no quick fix for this problem, and it is going to take weeks and weeks of quiet perseverence and patience. It still may not work......but using all of the thoughts and advice on here, plus the DT Behaviourist's input, then at least we have tried.

Your poor knees with having to trudge up and down all those stairs, I do sympathise, and also your disappointment that Lana was not coping as well as you thought. What is it with these wretched dogs Can they not see that we love them and will do anything to keep them happy and contented, so what is a few moments freedom to go shopping/etc. etc. in return?

I suppose what really stops me being completely positive is that, for instance with Lana, the dog has been left alone regularly and has always had the owner return. Nothing bad has happened. Yet they still become distressed and frantic.

My nephew got married last week and I couldn't go to the wedding because I couldn't leave Lana. It would have been nice to have gone. I was even wondering today if I should get another dog to keep Lana company and although I've heard so many people say it's in fact easier with two dogs I'm not convinced. Anyway with my luck the other dog would pick up Lanas bad habits hahaha I'm not enthusiastic with that idea so not going to follow through with it.

Although I was never out every day previously I've had Lana for 7 months now and did have to leave her at times so you would think she would know I am coming back. The thing is there is no history on Lana so I have no idea what happened to her and why she is so upset to be left on her own.

As she was whining away as I came up the stairs today, which is a first I wondered if because the guy downstairs had come to the door on Friday and stayed there a couple of minutes at first trying to shush Lana if this somehow made her worse today. There's usually no one comes up. I did once mistime it and the postie came but Lana probably thought it was her birthday as she had lovely big bits of paper to chew up

Funnily enough, today she didn't chew on any paper at all

I'm going to order a dap diffuser from ebay and see if it helps.

I am also going to order a paint roller. I live over the road from B&Q, I can see it from my window but if I was to walk there, go in and look and pay and come back it would take 20-30 minutes so I am having to order online How silly is that. I would like to use it tomorrow but will have to wait now for it to be delivered.

I've been washing the bathroom walls and things today so been in there with the door closed on quite a few occasions and it doesn't bother Lana at all. If only dogs could talk and explain why they are scared to be left on their own it would be so much easier to set their minds at rest.

My view is that a behaviourist is the best route, because the problem is not always "separation anxiety" as such, although this is what owners tend to self diagnose with

But if you do get a behaviourist involved, do ensure they are reputable, as there are so many really bad "dog botherers" out there. A good way to make sure, is to see if they've done any continued professional development and if they are preferably a member of the APBC or perhaps the APDT (apdt are trainers, but some members do have a very good knowledge of behaviour).

Some people think they know more than they do, so be wary of anyone like that Best to ensure the person you choose can work alongside your vet if necessary, and they should ask for a vet check to make sure the problem is not medically based.

A good behaviourist should give you a specifically tailored programme to follow, with explanations and the offer of support and back up.

Wys
x

Hi Wysiwyg - and I do tend to agree with you on the whole. Both 1cutedog and myself realise that our dogs do not exhibit the true SA symptoms, as they are ONLY upset when they are completely alone in the house. For myself and Jimmi, I think that much of what Helena and others have suggested alongside the instructions from the Dogs Trust Behaviourist is the way to go, but it is clearly going to take a great deal of time. As Bessie is very similar to Lana and Jimmi in her behaviour, then Cardaph is in the same boat........i.e., a rescue dog with no known history. All three of them are desperate not be left entirely on their own (in Jimmi's case, even a stranger will do for company, whilst he patiently and calmly waits at the window for our return), and no matter how much a behaviourist costs he/she is not going to be able to tell us what happened in each dog's past The main thing is to gradually reduce this anxiety, if possible, and I can see small improvements in Jimmi already, following the implementation of the instructions from the DT lady.

1cute dog - I really feel for you, and completely understand what you are going through. People have (half jokingly) suggested to me that we get another dog to keep Jimmi company............hmmph, I don't think so!! We would end up with another dog with issues, and both of them would swap hang ups!!!

Come on, let's list the good points of Lana, Jimmi and Bessie............it will make us feel better;

JIMMI
sweet natured and very loving
Is happy to act as a hot water bottle
not scared of thunder or gunfire (this is a first for our dogs )
Small, and therefore medication and food is cheaper
Doesn't bark much, except when left or at cats and pigeons.
Is fun to have around........mostly.
Has nice markings (scraping the barrel a little now)
um.........think that's it!!

Oh my word, look what you two (three now!!) have been up to since I went awol!!! Bitkin I'm so proud of you starting off with the goings and comings and you see, little Jimmi got a bit bored with it didn't he and settled niceley!! Poor you 1cutedog though, all those stairs, and I dread to think what disguises you're having to go out in now, is it slippers and dressing gown, or is that Bitkin's disguise, I honestly can't remember!

I love that e-mail you got, makes a lot of sense to me, and there is a lot of stuff in there which we came up with together isn't there, so it's got to work, eventually, and that's a big eventually I know!

Now, I got to thinking when I read about the shutting Jimmi or Lana in a room and how they went manic????? Can't remember whether it was both of them though. Now, something I have noted in this household is, whenever I have had to shut my dogs in a room and actually close the door, my older rescue Georgie goes nuts, well, as nuts as he's capable of, which is his usual whingeing and whining, but Zena, my youngster does nothing. So I got to thinking about something my new agility trainer told me, when she said "the dog's dog to trust you to do this, and if she trusts you, then it'll be a peace of cake", and thankfully it IS, because she does trust me (why oh why I don't know after what I put her through with all those vets for her first year with us ). So, back to the theory of them being shut in a room and Georgie kicking off, makes me think, the reason he does this is because he doesn't trust me (am I going to leave him in there kind of thing?) whereas Zena, who DOES trust me explicity, doesn't make a fuss (yes, I know she did in that caravan but it was all new to her wasn't it )? So, two questions spring to mind, WHY doesn't my rescue dog trust me when we've had him for 6 years, and what have I done to make Zena trust me like she does????

Does this mean that the longer you have them, they will learn to trust you, or has the damage been so bad in their past life that they can't trust anybody again, but then they usually seem to don't they? There must be a link missing here, i.e. you're giving them all the love, comfort and food that they could possibly want, but something is perhaps missing?

Do you spend time playing with them? I'm wondering if this playtime set aside at specific times of the day could be your key? Could that be HOW exactly they learn to put their trust in us, I have no idea, but because Zena was a puppy last year (and still is to me ), of course, I spent hours and hours actually playing with her at certain times throughout the day, and that could have built a really strong bond between us, whereby she knows to trust me? Whereas Georgie, he never got played with by me, he just played with my other dog, or went out on walks. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here, but I'm thinking along the lines of, you get a rescue dog, they're fully trained (or sort of!) so you don't actually bother to train them and because they're usually that bit older, you don't tend to play with them like you would a puppy? Of course you take them out, but it's not quite the same as that playtime.

I dunno, nobody could be trying harder than you 2 (now 3!), it's just another one of my suggestions to throw in the mix, it could work??? Failing all else, get that whisky out again Bitkin and pour me a large one! Lol!

I meant to reply yesterday, but something cropped up, but I do read how you're getting on each day, and by the time I've come back again, I've forgotten what I was going to reply to first time around coz more has been put up lol!!! Keep up the good work and think on what I've said above.

The first time Lana was left with my son in our own house she whined the whole time, but did settle a bit better on future occasions. I can't leave her with my dad who's 83 even though he lives 1 minutes from Asda as he's a selfish old booger she paces about and doesn't settle, that's from the twice I left her there until he told me she'd never get used to being tied up outside shops if I always left her with him.

Personally I couldn't afford a behavourist, just don't have the money for one so it's not an option for me and as you say there's no previous history on our dogs.

I went out twice today. I know it wasn't often, will do more tomorrow. Taped Lana both times and she didn't make a sound. (Maybe I should tape Lana in a different way, instead of with the tape recorder I should tape her gob shut with parcel tape, that might stop her barking haha Joke folks, please don't be nasty to me ) I ran down the stairs, opened and let the main door bang shut and came quietly back up the stairs. She looked at me as though to say, what was that nonsense all about I swear she knew I hadn't actually gone out the main door.

Tomorrow I will take my bag and purse with me as though I am going somewhere and see what she's like then. If there's still nothing I will actually go out the main door and walk up the lane. I tied her up outside the shop today telling her to be quiet. She didn't bark for the first 30 seconds or so which was a long time for her but then started. I went out and told her to be quiet and she was.

I'm so glad you can see improvements with Jimmi already, that's really great news.

Good points about Lana, eh well let me think

Very friendly both with dogs and humans
mostly obedient except when she has off times
is mostly well behaved
is a cutie
is loving
makes me laugh lots with her antics

Just thought I'd add, if it wasn't for the seperation thing I think she would be perfect

Hi Helena.........what you say actually makes perfect sense, and I had never thought of that trust thing. Does Jimmi trust me? I doubt it to be honest, because I have done little as yet to make him think that whatever I do is absolutely fine. (after all, I am the one who pulls him away from that cat/rabbit/pigeon and that is clearly a rubbish thing to do )
Yes, we feed him on time every time, walk him on time every time and do loads of other things to make him feel secure but that trust thing..........I really do think that you have a point. Once again, your thoughts tally with the instructions from DT behaviourist, because she talks about spending time training Jimmi; she was meaning to help to exhaust his mind, but your theory is so valid. So much of what she said is exactly what you suggested but I had been going wrong in so much as each time we returned to the kitchen I was letting Jimmi out of the cage. Wrong!!! It is so much better now that we return, ignore his frantic excitement (soooooooo hard) sit down for a few minutes until he calms down then simply go out and do it all again. I will not rush this, no matter how tempting and we are still at the one minute stage. Perhaps after tomorrow it will be 90 seconds I don't know how old 1cutedog is, but I am reaching the age when I dare not go outside too often in my dressing gown and slippers in case I forget what I have on and wander off somewhere!!

1cutedog, Lana is not consistent is she - one day awful and stressed and the next not too bad at all. This makes things all the more difficult for you because just when you think that progress is being made, you go back a few steps. I know that I keep saying it, but I do honestly understand and you must feel like a prisoner at times. It is so much easier for me to follow the regime of in and out, in and out several times over a half hour period a couple of times a day because we do not have stairs. You must find it exhausting to do even two pretend "leaving".

By the time that we have finished with all this (and we must be positive about this......we WILL finish one day ) this thread will hold all the answers to leaving a dog with SA or similar.

I am now going to pour a large whisky and ginger - will leave the bottles on the thread for Helen and 1cutedog........you have both kept me sane. Thank you.