HI there

I appreciate what people are saying. However, there is a very big difference between a dog that isnt show quality and a dog that has something wrong with it physically and cannot be shown nor bred from. Do you understand what I mean?

I think you sound as if you are excellent breeders and I take my hat of to you for that. However, not everybody is like you and the more that these people get away with it the more they will breed and sell sub-standard dogs to the unsuspecting public. That is not right and that is where The Sale of Goods Act (as amended) comes in. It doesnt just cover every day items, it also covers puppies.

There is no difference from a puppy farmer or BYB selling a puppy that has physical defects and a reputable breeder. Each has a responsibility to the purchaser and to the puppy.

The only thing that a breeder can do when they sell a puppy is to guarantee its parentage and that it is healthy on the date of sale. Now, if they havent pointed out that only one testicle has dropped then I would think that the puppy is not 100%. They may have mentioned it, but if there is nothing in writing that the pup only has one testicle then the pup is sub-standard and the purchaser is entitled to compensation. Being that an undescended testicle can be dangerous then I would think that paying for the neutering is quite reasonable.

I agree that when selling puppies you are dealing with live animals and anything can go wrong. Also, reputable breeders do everything they can to prevent this. However, when it does happen it is my opinion (taking the Sale of Goods Act (as amended)) that the breeder has to bear some responsibility. You cant take the money from the person and wash your hands of it. That's just not fair!!!

I am not for one minute suggesting that any ethical or reputable breeder would do this but these laws are out there to protect the people from the breeders that dont carry out the tests and are happy to take the money but dont want anything more to do with things.

I hope I have put this across the way its meant to sound. I am not trying to offend anybody. Remember, we arent talking about people who do things right here. We are talking about people who dont do things right and who should be brought to task.

Kind regards
Spettadog

There are no tests for bad mouths or undescended testicles, no breeder can give a gaurentee that the pup will not develope a fault that may not make it a good show prospect. That is why no breeder should sell show potential pups, just well bred healthy pups.
If someone came to me for a show potential pup I would want to know what they would be doing with the pup if it did not turn out as they planned and depending on their answer may not get the pup at all.

There are no tests for bad mouths of undescended testicles but these are clear to see!!!! You can see if a mouth is overshot./undershot and if a testicle is undescended when you collect the puppy.

I have to say that maybe you dont sell show potential puppies and I take my hat off to you for that. There are many many breeders that do sell show potential puppies and they leave themselves wide open if the dog doesnt make the grade ie turns out to have defects that stop them showing. These are the types of breeders we are talking about here!!!

Kind regards
Spettadog

I have seen many a perfect mouth go bad when the adult teeth come through and seen many testicle come down later on.

If you did your research before buying you would know that

But Annie, we're talking about live animals not washing machines. Anything can, and frequently does go wrong, puppy buyers should not be encouraged to have such unrealistic expectations.

How many times have you heard the phrase ''no dog is perfect'', and unfortunately buyers want perfect, or else somebody must be to blame, and it doesn't exist.

If a breeder has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the parents of a litter do not carry hereditary health problems, they can do no more, but of course, neither should they misrepresent their puppies as some kind of perfect show stopping guaranteed Champions. Most are not good enough for that.

Dawn R.

HI there

Firstly, can I just say that I didnt start this thread but am merely giving MY opinion and that is what the law states.

I couldnt agree more with the comments that are made regarding dealing with live animals and how things can go wrong. If I were breeding (which I dont - thank goodness) I would make sure that I carried out all the tests that were recommended prior to mating - if only to cover myself in case anything did go wrong. Then when I had puppies, I would not pass them off as something spectacular. I am more realistic than that. But this does happen and its not fair when the person that has bought the puppy realises that their wonderful show dog has no future in the ring.

Its not right and I am merely stating the law (which is what I know!!).

I take my hat off to breeders that do things correctly and, lets face it, lots of breeders are ethical and only have the best interests of the dogs at heart. However, in law there is no difference between a reputable breeder breeding dogs and selling them as something they arent, and a puppy farmer breeding dogs and selling them as KC registered (they get round this by using the DLRC now dont they!).

This is the reason that I think that breeding dogs should not be taken lightly. THe more people that are not doing things properly that are taken to task about it, the more people will stop breeding thinking it is an easy way of making money.

I am entitled to my opinion. I am not an expert but I am by no means an amateur with dogs either. My expertise does not lie in breeding but I do expect that if I pay a princely sum for a dog that it is healthy.

If a dog has an undescended testicle then it should be pointed out at the time the dog is sold. I have a dog with an overshot bite which was like that when I bought her. I bought her as a pet and paid half price for her. I dont have a problem with that because it was pointed out to me at the time. What I do have a problem with is when people charge vast amounts of money for puppies that they havent even taken the time to make sure the parents are health tested first. That is not fair. Sure, the parents may be carriers and nobody would know that, but at least you have tried.

I do think that we all have the best interests of dogs at heart so that is a common thread. However, just because something is a live animal, it doesnt stop the person who has bred it from responsibility towards it if they havent carried out relevant health tests prior to breeding.

Regarding research. Most puppy purchasers are not professional dog people and they are very niave. Perhaps they dont do enough research but if there werent people out there trying to make a fast buck out of breeding puppies then they wouldnt get burned so many times.

Its really sad. I hope you can see where I am coming from. If not then we are just going to have to agree to disagree but the law is on the side of the purchaser!

Spettadog

Hi Annie, I know you're not the OP, I just thought we were having a discussion, and of course you're entitled to your oppinion, we all are. I think we don't disagree on the main points of the subject, but as far as most puppy buyers not being professional dog people, well it's a vicious circle isn't it.

Which came first, gullible puppy buyers who didn't make it their business to find out about their very expensive purchase, or puppy farmers and unreputable breeders, who saw an opportunity to exploit them.

What I do know is that as long as people like us continue to discuss these things on public forums, then those that are doing some research, willl have a better chance of happening upon the right sorts of information.

So we're doing a good job here. Please don't think I'm picking on you personally.

Dawn R.

Maybe breeders should give a sold as seen receipt, like people do when selling second hand cars??? it cant ALL be put on the breeder the buyer has SOME responsibility of knowing what they are in fact buying surely? dont get me wrong I personally do think a breeder should point out any potential problems with a pup, but we all know that more often than not the puppy buyer is so wrapped up and excited about getting that pup even if the breeder did mention anything it could get forgotten in all the excitement. I dont think its as cut an dry as the sales act makes out,

Mo

Hi again

Yep, I completely agree with both posts. The thing is though that the law cannot differentiate between puppy farmers and breeders who have simply made a mistake. Unless something is in writing (which is was when I bought Ruby with the overshot bite!) then the breeder is held responsible.

I just want to point out that there are pitfalls to breeding and its something that shouldnt be taken lightly. I have contracts with both my Braccos and the progeny cannot be registered without relevant health checks being done prior to mating. Ruby is speyed because of her overshot mouth though so that would never be an issue.

I would imagine that all good breeders sell pups with contracts which covers all the details so that the purchasers have something to look at when they get home. I dont think it is experienced breeders we are talking about though. Im just wanting to point out where the law stands so that everybody knows their responsibities.

At the end of the day, if you do everything you should do in relation to recommended health checks, contracts etc., then you really shouldnt have a problem. And, in my mind, its the breeders who take the time to do this that will be the ones most concerned if anything were to be reported back to them about one of their puppies.

Kind regards
Annie

This is such an interesting thread... Our last setter had hip dysplacia, she was sold to my dad back in mid 80's and sold as 'pet only' not to be shown or bred from... she died of bone cancer, her hip had been eaten away...
She is distantly related to my Jamie and TBH I fear he will go the same way... but his breeder hip scored and told me how much exercise and feed to give him and so I feel I have done all I can as he grows to prevent it happening.. but like you all have mentioned, dogs are living things and like children accidents happen and fate steps in...
When you buy a dog you have to be prepared for things to go wrong and just pray it doesn't... I want to get Jamie hip scored soon to put my mind at ease, just so I can be prepared in case he does have it.. I wouldn't blame his breeder though as they did all they could to prevent it in his breeding.