In fairness though Patch, I do agree with what you're saying, but I did once have a dog who responded to nothing at all, when he wanted to herd us (and he wasn't a BC) he wanted to herd us and that drive and his desire to keep us together over rode absolutely everything and he let you know about it, incredibly vocally. He did not respond to treats,tickles,toys, voice,being ignored...nothing.....he would jump up and down and scream if we seperated, even slightly, he would do the same if the three of us tried to walk in a line.

How did we solve it I hear you ask??? A gentle leader, so we could distract him from the behaviour and reward him with a tickle normally (he wasn't food oriented at all) when he settled down. It took a lot of time and energy, but we had to have the gentle leader to get his attention... his desire to herd us and keep us together just over rode his interest in anything else. So not all dogs always respond to the positive stuff, sometimes you need a way to stop a behaviour in order to teach them what you do want them to do. If you see what I mean? Slightly off topic as well...sorry.

I think what he does gets results, however, I believe they are short term `quick fix` results, which because he uses force and fear, merely disguise a dogs problems.
They don`t actually cure them.

When a dog shuts down through what`s called learned helplessness, [ scientifically proven effect ], they are not working through an issue, they are just giving up.

A dog can`t truly overcome an issue that way, they will still be as scared, [ more often than not a dog which is reactive to people or other dogs or whatever the problem is tends to be a fear rooted reaction ], they just fear showing how scared they are more than the fear they need the help with, so rather than helping them they are just having a stronger fear enforced on them to cover over their initial problems root.

Toatally agree.
I used to be all for people going to classes...but the standard out there is pants indeed. They pile them into classes and some are just blatantly in it for the money.

I have been lucky as I know a good trainer, with superb classes, she teaches the owners more than the dogs BUT some of the others I've seen are an accident waiting to happen. I was wanting my son to do some other stuff with the pup...but not at the ones I've seen, too dangerous.

He does vary his methods Ailsa, you should watch more programs. A dog that appeared scared of dogs barking and wouldnt walk, he never hissed at, he just took the lead and said the dog wasnt scared just knew how to get what it wanted. (by refusing to move, the dog got taken back home where it could sit on the window and bark at passers by) He kept walking when the dog went to stop, not struggling, no panicking, the dog just walked, and with dogs around she never flinched. the owners did the same and got exactly the same response. The dog was then able to be walked much more regular, went on picnics etc.. and was a more happy dog because of it. Before she was a nutter! barking at everything that moved!

I`m Patch, not Ailsa

[ Sorreee could`nt resist ]

I can't say I've seen a whole lot of his programmes compared to alot more people on here, we have only really started watching him the past few month's. I have never seen the use of a e colloar in the show but have seen the use of the prong collar, while illegal in this country they are still wildley used in the USA when I was there lots of people were walking dog's with them and they are still seen in the animal planet programme Animal cop's and still on sale in America and I agree not all people agree with his method's, and as was said on here earlier that not one method work's with all dog's most of us can accept this, I don't train my dog's the CM way, I train the way and train the method what suit's myself, I wouldn't tell anyone how to train i'm not qualified to do so, only I can tell you what might work as it work's with mine I can only advise.

I don't think there's anything I could use either, but in fairness to all CM followers, I haven't watched that many of his programs either

That's the point. She was adamant that CM's methods work. I tried to explain that they weren't but there's only so much you can say to a person

Well said P

It's her age, you have to make allowances for it


[runs to hide.....]

That would no doubt have applied whoever she was a fan of.

I agree Trouble, to not at least try another approach is very blinkered IMO.

Maybe I should of given her the Galaxy bar instead

I know I realised after I posted but the internet connection went down!! I wont correct it now though.