This is interesting. I don't know if any of you have ever read a book by Geoff Thompson called "The Elephant and the Twig". He talks about this learned helplessness. In fact, the introduction to the book reads as follows:

Now is that such a bad thing? Say for example that I wanted my dog to stay in the park and not wander out into the traffic. I think I'd much rather rely on the fact that my dog has just been gently conditioned to think it can't leave the park and therefore never tries, than let it use it's powers of reasoning to figure out that roads are dangerous and it might get killed. And I'd much rather my dog just accepted that I was boss and didn't try to work everything through and challenge every instruction given.

Surely EVERYONE that has a large, powerful dog is relying on learned helplessness to control the dog? What's to stop the dog challenging your authority and getting everything his way? Without learned helplessness surely you'd be forced to use brute force at some point?

Beagles are renowned for being escape artists. One of the important tips I received was to always be sure that if I fence my pup in somewhere (for example, with baby gates) to always ensure that the pup can't jump over it. Apparantly, once they learn that they can jump over a barrier and get the fun/tasty stuff on the other side then it's a constant challenge to them and they keep trying - eventually becoming escape artists as adult dogs. Never let their escape bids succeed when they're young (and easier to keep contained) and they're less likely to try when they're older. This is an example of learned helplessness. In a human it's a bad thing because humans WANT to keep pushing the envelope. But we don't want dogs doing it if it makes them impossible to live with, or if it puts them in danger....do we?

Or have I completely missunderstood your point here?

IMO They create a shut down dog on the programmes ive seen, sometimes they create a whole new problem with the dog & the dog is wrongly labeled .

All i see is the dogs give up .

I like to see a dog "taught" acceptable ways rather than overfaced & forced.

Not everyone sees it that way.But thats their opinion & they are entltled to see what they want ,just as i am.

His methods work in a way...but not in a way that id ever want to use.

Yes that is the order he rates them, and please stop apologising for asking, we may disagree but I don't feel got at.
I think I have already quoted him earlier in this thread but briefly
"Exercise the first and most important activity between dog and owner.
Discipline- setting of rules, boundaries and limits between dog and owner. Discipline also means consistency with jobs and activities.
Affection- This should be the last activity done by dog and owner. Affection can also be used as a reward for good behaviour. "
The speech marks denote his words not mine, it's what he says not my interpretation.

Now is that such a bad thing? Say for example that I wanted my dog to stay in the park and not wander out into the traffic. I think I'd much rather rely on the fact that my dog has just been gently conditioned to think it can't leave the park and therefore never tries, than let it use it's powers of reasoning to figure out that roads are dangerous and it might get killed. And I'd much rather my dog just accepted that I was boss and didn't try to work everything through and challenge every instruction given.

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Now id prefer that my dogs think so much of me & how much fun we have that they dont want to leave me (which they dont), id also rely on the fact that as a back up they all have a 100% recall even at flat out & a instant down.

Non of this is achieved by punisment

Thank you, how do you rate them out of interest?

Does he ever incorparte "play" into the exercise or Affection do you know?

id actually like to edit my list to

1.Affection
2.Play
3.mental exercise
4.physical exercise
5.discipline

Now id prefer that my dogs think so much of me & how much fun we have that they dont want to leave me (which they dont), id also rely on the fact that as a back up they all have a 100% recall even at flat out & a instant down.

Non of this is achieved by punisment [/quote]

Me too. Mine stay with me for exactly the same reasons and also have brilliant recall whatever the distractions and whatever speed they are travelling they can stop in an instant.

That quote came out looking a bit odd

I think in WHATEVER method you choose, if thats what you have then you are reading your dogs right & have a happy balance which im all in favour of!!!!!

Me too Which is why I've said that using his methods from puppyhood are brilliant, It has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem dogs shown on tv. and I wish novice and new puppy owners wouldn't watch the program but read the book instead, it would be of far more use to them and covers topics they need to understand and are not covered in any doggy tv program.

So what factors do you think are at play here? Why do you think you have such perfect control over your dog? Why do you think that your dog never decides to choose what HE wants over what YOU want?

Learned Helplessness is one approach that is used to get unswerving obedience - and it most definately doesn't require punishment (unless you consider putting a dog on a lead to be punishment).

What do you think is at play in your case - what prevents your dog from simply ignoring you?

TBH i think you are a far better trainer than he is! Give your self ALOT of credit please!!!!!!