oh thats a whole new thread,if I bred dogs I would sell a puppy to someone whos anti CM,there are plenty of other training methods that are just as good xx

Actually that is a excellent answer!!!!!!

Thank you
However I don't breed and never will but yes of course I would sell a puppy to someone who was anti CM although as I would obviously be a reputable breeder I would want to know more about them than that and surely discussing future training of the precious pup is part of how you decide whether or not the person is worthy of one of yours.
I would also want to know whether or not the pro CM saw him in the way I do or if they were going by what they had seen on the tv and how they were interpreting what they had seen. If they were a superior being like myself then obviously that in itself would be great. However if they thought he was all about Alpha Rolls and strutting ya stuff I would have to put them straight, send them away with a copy of the book, and re evaluate them once they had digested the contents.
Probably not the answer some were expecting.

I think this is an important point. Whilst all the people that *believe* his methods to be wrong are entitled to their opinion it's VERY important to remember that theirs is JUST one of many opinions. It is NOT the case that experienced people know better and don't support his methods. Many experienced trainers DO support his methods - the lady that teaches the obedience classes that I attend for starters. Now she's one of the most experienced trainers in my area. She recomends his methods and uses many of the approaches that some people claim are outdated and proven to be wrong.

Now many of those amongst us that are just ignorant dog owners that aren't members of the special group of "dog pro's" do have a few brain cells rattling around, and we are capable of forming our own opinions based upon a variety of sources of information. And I have to say that my research has led me to conclude that his methods are like many others - stuff that's proven to work based upon a theory that is simply guesswork. I tend to think that you get the most objective view of something if you filter out the extreme opinions - because extreme opinions "tend" to be based upon something other than hard facts.

When people use emotive words like punishment, fear and so on then my guess is that a lot of people simply won't relate that to what they see on the show. I don't see that. I see a man that clearly loves dogs and is firm but fair...resulting in a happy, balanced dog. To those that see it differently I'd say think about the words you're using - because if you make your choice of words too strong and emotive people will not take you seriously and not get your point.

Or course, people with extreme opinions have every right to express them. But I'm just explaining why the 'general public' isn't listening to what they keep telling us! You ain't convincing us that you're right!!!

I don't think it matter's about who is convincing anyone.
What matter's is we can agree to disagree without the reason of resorting to personal attack's and with abit of luck agree to disagree and get on with it.
Just because I believe Ceasar is good and someone else doesn't then Im not wrong, and neither is the other person.
It's life and if we all agree'd this would'nt be the god only know's how manyth thread about CM.

but "punishment" is not being used just to convey emotion, it is being used in this context as it is part of CMs methods and it is a subject that people disagree on.. some people do get passionate about what they think and obviously it's fine to disregard their thoughts, but i just think that they must have reasons for this.. whether they persuade people to reconsider their stance is another matter, bearing in mind there are many people who read through this forum and never post, we will never know the extent of their effect.

I agree they must have reasons for interpreting what they see in this way. What interests me is that other people interpret it very differently - including experienced trainers. I've frequently heard CM stress that discipline and punishment are not the same thing, and that he recommends discipline - rules, boundaries and limitations.

I watch the show regularly, and although I wouldn't say I'm a follower of CM's methods I do like what I see. I enjoy watching the show and it gives me some insight into what makes a dog tick. And regardless of whether his theories as to how and why it works are correct, I've found that it does work! And it simply does not traumatize my pup on any way, shape or form. In fact, I'd say things like projecting the right energy and 'claiming my space' are a lot LESS traumatic for her than constantly telling her 'No' or trying to entice her away from the 1001 things that she shouldn't be chewing/playing with. Other than in discussion forums I've never heard any dog owner say anything but positive things about the man - and I meet up with stacks of dog owners (experienced and otherwise) on my daily walks in the park.

Now people have homed in on some specific cases that they say are cruel. The episode where he used an electric collar for example. He stressed that it wasn't in any way painful to the dog. It just provided a distraction from the unwanted behavior - a bit like throwing a noisy bottle of coins to fall by your dog to make it associate a currently fun behavior (such as chewing your furniture or chasing car wheels) with something less satisfying (A loud noise or a strange tingly sensation). So whilst a lot of people on these forums insist it IS cruel - as if it's a fact, many people seem to disagree. I happily use a water pistol or bottle of coins on my pup. I wouldn't do if I thought it did more than momentarily startle her. If my pup chased care wheels and had already been run down twice I'd have no qualms about someone that knew what they were doing trying an electric collar to rid her of her dangerous habit.

I simply don't see the cruelty that others refer to. Now yes, you could argue that I'm not experienced enough to spot when a dog is feeling distressed, but the lady that runs the obedience classes I go to is very much in favor of his methods.

Very often things get a bad press because someone *thinks* they're cruel and uses such emotive language that they browbeat others into conforming to their wishes. So rather than just hearing about cruelty and punishment (which I and my experienced dog trainer don't see) I'd like people to try and explain in logical, unemotional language exactly what they think is cruel about CM's methods and why. Can you provide some examples of what you consider to be punishment?

mishflynn: hi there, yes if I were selling puppies, I would sell to someone whether they were pro or anti Cesar ... I don't believe I have the right, as the hypothetical breeder we are talking about here, to dictate to my purchasers what method of training they need to use. I would be far more concerned about the diet of the dog for instance, or whether they could give him enough exercise, or leave him alone all day whilst they were out at work.

i am not pro or anti CM by the way.. i have watched a lot of his programmes and there are things i agree with (albeit these are mostly common sense) and things i thoroughly disagree with - namely these forms of punishment: prong collars, ecollars, "illusion" collars. i've seen an ecollar being used and it is not something i would ever wish to see again..

Many congrats on your new addition to the household

From the above, this is not dissimilar at all to what most reward trainers tend to advise - boundaries, rules etc are good for dogs because they know where they are