Hmmm, I've thought about this long and hard - Considering some of the problems Bulldogs can have if you don't wipe their bottoms after number 2's (sorry if your eating) I was wondering wether the Bobtail Boxer can suffer with the same sort of problem??

I can't think of anything worse than breeding a dog without a tail, with half a tail or no tail, it's bound to cause problems as to regards health - just look what can happen to the Bulldog if you don't care for them proporly. A dogs tail is part of their personality and their tails should be left intact if they are meant to be that way. JMO

yes your right but with selective breeding we could get a dog without the rossette tail like the bulldog ?

One of my leos is Docked(due to illness) and it is great that she is no longer smashing the house to bits with it but I would not choose to have her Docked

Yes I would still feel the Same way, if I owned a traditionally docked breed I one day want a Dobie with a Tail.

I agree some Responsible bred Dogs do end up in Rescue but that is usually Due to the Fact the new owner has not contacted the Breeder to give that Breeder the chance to re home/Take back

We already don't have to dock... rightly or wrongly, we choose to dock

Please re-read my response - I *am* looking at the bigger picture - the one involving some horrednous health issues already present which should be resolved. Those are far more important that the tiny picture of a few people putting a missing length of a dogs spine for appearance sake over the rest of the dog.
Adding to health problems and adding to sheer numbers of dogs bred through outcrossing for no reason other than creating tail-less dogs out of sheer stubborness is wrong on so many levels.
Those crossbreeds [ from outcrossing ], would all need homes as well.
Will the pro-dockers give them those homes if they are born with tails during the generations it would take...?
Would you ...?
I seriously doubt it when the people who would do this dont want those tails in the first place.
To want to do something like this is for the sake of human vanity and that is not a good enough reason imo.
Its irresponsible and arrogant of our species to even want to do it. Time and time again since humans first started interfering in how this or that dog should `look`, breed after breed has been messed up and damaged.

Consider the Boxer and highly prevalent health issues affecting them, one very serious potentially fatal condition being specific to them.

The following information is from http://www.boxerworld.com/health_testing/

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* Aortic stenosis/sub-aortic stenosis
(AS/SAS) is one of the most common heart defects occurring in boxers. Stenosis is narrowing of the aorta, right below the aortic valve, which forces the heart to work harder to supply blood. Reduced blood flow can result in fainting and even sudden death. The disease is inherited but its mode of transmission is not known at this time. Diagnosis must be made by a veterinary cardiologist, after detection of a heart murmur. Breeding dogs must be properly screened for this disease and affected dogs must not be bred from.

* Boxer cardiomyopathy
is an electrical conduction disorder which causes the heart to beat erratically (to have an arrhythmia) some of the time and can result in weakness, collapse or sudden death. These arrhythmias are difficult to detect with any certainty by listening to the heart with a stethoscope, unless they are very frequent thus the first sign of the disease may be fatal. Cardiomyopathy is a genetically inheritable condition with devastating results. Because a dog cannot be cleared of cardiomyopathy by a routine veterinary examination and the disease may not show itself until after a dog reaches breeding age, it is important that all breeding stock are properly screened for this disease.

Boxer cardiomyopathy is a distinct disease from the dilated cardiomyopathy common in some other breeds. Other names for BCM are Boxer Arrythmic Cardiomyopathy (BAC), Familial Ventricular Arrhythmia (FVA) and Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy (ARVC).

* Cancer. Boxers are particularly prone to the development of mast cell tumours, lymphoma and brain tumours. White boxers, and coloured boxers with white markings should be protected from the sun as they are liable to develop skin cancer if allowed to burn.

* Bloat
or Gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) is a very serious condition that occurs when the stomach becomes distended with air, and then twists on itself while dilated. This interferes with the blood supply digestive organs, blocks the passage of food, thus leading to worse bloat. The distended stomach impedes the normal return of blood to the heart, causing a decrease in blood pressure and drastically reduced cardiac output. Blood/oxygen-deprived tissues start to die, releasing toxins into the blood stream which among other adverse effects, cause serious disturbances in heart rhythms (cardiac arrhythmias). Dogs affected by bloat can die within hours.

Dogs most susceptible to bloat are the large, deep-chested breeds, in whom the stomach appears to be more mobile within the abdomen.


---------[ end of quote ]---------------

The Boxer was bred and bred for the distinctive deep chest, yet look at the health risks particularly deliberately breeding for a shape which encourages bloat.
The head shape was bred for - look at the health and eye set problems this encourages in these Brachycephalic dogs, problems including higher risk of heat stroke, higher aneasthetic risks because of the construction, and earlier likelihood of periodontal disease.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body...ycephalic.html

Those issues and other breeds` specific health problems *are* the bigger picture, not whether some people prefer an unnatural tailess appearance - and make no mistake, breeding for lack of tail does not mean any tailess dogs from such breeding would then be `natural` because they would be purely manmade for look, and thats not natural at all.

What it comes down to is just how much must dogs continue to suffer for human visual preferences ?
Are`nt they more important than what you or anyone else considers `pleasing` to the eye ?

yes some very good points an so true
but some certain breeds have different health problams to others so if crossed it could ilimenate the health issue
and to the surpluse dogs well even top breedere have puppies born with slight deformatys and they still get rehomed all i was trying to say if ppl wanted to it can be achived and we have been cross breeding for centurys thats how all the breeds we have to day came about
and dont all breeders breed there dogs to be pleaseing to the eye
and thats why we have different breeds

i have a english mastiff after numours times she damaged her tail in the end she had it took off
'
but if you had a chioce of 2 litters of doby,s one docked and one undocked wich would you choose ?

sorry i wrote that wrong i am not trying to breed dogs with no tails i just read it know and relised what it says

Can`t speak for anyone else but personally I would go for tailed every time - they are far healthier for having the tail, particulalry re shpincter action [ many docked dogs become incontinent directly due to docking ], they can communicate better, dont have life long nerve pain, less spinal problems, can move better etc etc.
Do I `prefer` the look of a proper tail ? Absolutely - but its a preference based on it being healthier for the dog which makes it `look` good to me :smt001

Well i think its the worst idea ive heard of staffer, less its a working dog then i dont see the need for a dock tail, then u want to breed many cross breeds to result in a no tail, which will cause so many health problems

Im not for docking but id rather have a good vet dock a dog than breed many dogs together to create masses of health problems just to get a dog without a tail

Does it even matter if the dog has a tail, its about time people start thinking of the welfare of the dog rather than money and comestic and physical reasons

Lets face it puppy farmers/peddlers will be selling them for 2000 grand ultra rare dog with no tail

Sorry but totally disagree with it

I CANNOT UNDERSTAND Staffer why u would want a bull mastiff without a tail