Split from puppy Growling thread/incidents of food guarding

I just watched several episodes on DVD of the Dog Whisperer, and in one, there was a little Lhasa Apso with a severe resource guarding attitude that was quickly corrected by what appeared to be "commonsensible" assertive techniques that Cesar claimed were also used by dogs to claim their food and territory. I don't know how he is viewed here, and I know these shows are heavily edited to make it look like instant magic, but I really do feel that the human must take a leadership role with an animal that has tested the boundaries and found that there are none.

I don't have extensive experience with dogs, but both Muttley and Lucky were strays with a probable history of abuse, yet I earned their trust and had no problems with resource guarding. The people with the Lhasa Apso had the dog from puppyhood, yet it became a dangerous animal who sent his owner to the hospital when his food or toys were messed with, and he growled menacingly when anyone even approached his food.

So far I have not watched any of Victoria Stilwell's shows, so perhaps I should see how she handles such cases. Or perhaps there are other DVDs I should watch where positive methods are effective. But I have not seen or experienced enough successful positive training methods in cases other than simple obedience and tricks, to be convinced of their superiority over what seems to me a very logical and scientific approach to dog psychology and behavior modification (as opposed to training).

Nooooooooooo - run for the hills!!!

Wys
x

IMO she's pretty good and improves all the time. Her first series was not so good IMO as she relied a lot on air horns and spoke about dominance a bit, however she has continued with her professional development and learnt a lot from the science we know about animal learning.

A good source is Dogwise, you can look out for people such as Pam Dennison and Sarah Kalnajs
The science supports real behaviour modification, (and dog training). All the reputable top behaviourists in this country and others will all have done a degree, masters, etc in animal behaviour and will know a huge amount about the science of animal minds/behaviour/ethology/etc.

As for dog training itself, consider what Ian Dunbar said once - that if you train a really advanced and excellent Sit, it will actually solve many problems. It's true.

Wys
x

I was watching a Dog Whisperer episode this week & there was a dog who was possessive with his rawhide. The way Ceaser dealt with it was to block the dog and claim back the chew with his foot (he had sturdy shoes on as he was attacked!!) and then got the owners to do it with a broom. Eventually the dog gave in and they all lived happily ever after - I'm sorry but I just don't get how this works??

The CM episode I saw was about Sasha, a little Lhasa Apso who growled and snapped when anyone threatened her food or toys. Of course the DVD showed it all being fixed in 5 minutes, but his concept is that the leader, whether dog or human, must claim the resource by simply towering over the possessive dog and blocking access to the resource until the dog becomes submissive. The dog simply gives up and shows no more resistance. Apparently this is a calming signal that is also used among dogs and wolves, but that might be debatable.

In the other part of the same episode, the dog was gripping a nylabone, and Cesar grabbed it and held tight, while he held another toy close to her as a distraction and target. When Sasha finally got tired of keeping a firm grip on the bone and went for the toy, Cesar was able to gain possession of both. Then he pretended to chew on them, but then gave one back to a more relaxed dog. Again, I'm sure it took several repetitions to get it right, and it may take fast reflexes, observation of signals, and entails a very real risk of being bitten, but the result is a submissive dog.

One might conclude that the dog has shut down and is consumed by fear, but I think the subsequent return of the prized resources (on the leader's terms), and physical and verbal affection, soon dispel any sense of fear. I think the main aversion of positive trainers is the assertion of dominance and the fearful attitude which then turns to submission, which in human terms seems unbearably cruel and degrading, but in terms of dog psychology these are only transitory reactions and the ultimate release of the fearfulness is actually very beneficial.

At least that is my take on the technique, and I think the results were remarkable given the severity of the resource guarding issues. Most dogs would probably not need even this much "force", and there was no hitting or yanking on a collar. In some cases (as with the GSD), the dog did twist and turn while Cesar held firm to the collar, but the dog was doing all the resisting. In such a situation, it is vital that the leader must win; otherwise even if it was a painful battle, the dog considers it a victory, and may try even harder next time which leads to escalation and even more difficulty in correcting the behavior.

Seems reasonable to me, but maybe I need to see how a positive trainer would handle a similar situation.

Hi Tillymint do we really know they lived happily ever after.

What has this taught the dog? That people can take his 'possessions' away, he may also associate having things taken with certain objects like shoes or brooms.


Dogs do not have the power of reason but they have a memory which can hold 'snapshots' of previous events, so when they meet similar situations in the future they can associate them with past events. I think this is particularly so with events which caused fear or pain (that is why we use gradual desensitisation in many instances to give the dog positive associations with things/situations which make them fearful).

When the dog is given a chew again he could react in a number of different ways becoming submissive with some people he fears but more defensive with others with disastrous consequences.

Putting it in simple terms, say you are a small child and learn I am stronger than you and can and will take your possessions as I choose, you may quickly stop trying to defend your possessions from me. But if another person tries to take them you may do something about it. Likewise if a 'broom' is there when your possessions are removed you may learn to associate a broom with bad experiences and when you see one again in different circumstances you could react irrationally.

How much better would it be to teach you no one wants to take your things or that if they do they will swap them for something else. You would never need to be defensive and would relax when people are around your possessions rather than needing to be on guard all the time.

Please can we not turn this into yet another CM debate. There are plenty of threads about him already. The subject here is about a puppy growling around food

I'm ahead of you !

I agree that a CM debate is not a good thing, but I feel that in that case VS also should not be discussed. Both are media celebrities and it may well be that their shows are edited and episodes are chosen for maximum entertainment and viewership. But I have been reading, watching, and learning from many sources, and I like to keep an open mind, as well as go with what my "gut" says is right.

In my experience, as I have described here and in other posts, I have either not had dogs with resource aggression issues, or I was able to create an environment and relationship where I showed them that I was in control and they accepted that. Since I am a novice dog owner, it is most likely the former, and perhaps I was lucky on these two occasions that I dealt with dogs on a daily basis.

If the moderator wishes to guide this discussion into a certain philosophy, then I really cannot add more to this thread, because my limited formal dog training was based on forceful corrective techniques that did not work for the purpose intended of helping me achieve LLW with my dog, and it only seemed to cause redirected aggression, so I can speak from experience that it was not the right way to train my dog.

But, looking back, and after years of discussion with other dog trainers and owners with much more experience, I find that there seems to be more diversion of opinion than concurrence, and I feel uncomfortable fully accepting any method as absolute. I have, I think, achieved a very healthy and stable relationship with my main dog Muttley, and I think I did fairly well with my other rescue dog Lucky during the couple of months I had with her. I really did not do all that much training, per se, but I concentrated on providing a secure, comfortable, and affectionate environment.

I did not analyze and worry about everything I did, but I just had certain expectations and without any cruelty or harsh correction I was able to feel safe handling both dogs, and taking them into public venues without any severe issues. Their behavior was not perfect by any means, and Muttley still has aggression issues with Black Labs, and he is not "obedient" in the formal sense except for a few commands, but I feel very comfortable with him and he seems relaxed, happy, and comfortable with me and with every person and almost every dog we meet.

My feeling is that one should learn to communicate with one's dog, develop a bond of mutual respect and trust, set and enforce reasonable limits, and just enjoy life with each other. I have a few issues that could use work, but nothing urgent, fortunately. I think the OP's issue is urgent, and I think I know how I would handle it, but it is up to the individual to get to know the dog and do what works. I have no experience with puppies, so what I have done may not apply.

I would like to add one more experience I had, not with my own dog, but with a small terrier that was also rescued by my friends at a horse farm. His name is Scruffy, and when I first met him I was warned that he would growl, especially at men, but his tail would be wagging, which sent mixed signals. He never snapped, but I treated him with caution. He became calmer after a while, and after I hand fed him some pieces of turkey, he became my buddy for life.

The woman who had him would scold him when he growled, and maybe even swat him, and also tried to train him not to jump on the furniture and bother people, although I welcomed it. But I tried not to undermine her efforts, and I would have him sit and wait for my invitation before jumping up into my lap. If he seemed like he was going to come up uninvited, I merely held my hand flat toward him and told him to wait, then told him OK and he eagerly came up for some doggy kisses before relaxing beside me. Now, after over a year, he is much better with all people. Here he is, and I think the first picture is from when he still had his growly disposition. He looks a bit uneasy :

This was, I think, about a year later, and he looks more comfortable and relaxed :

Hi Paul I asked that we did not turn the original thread into a CM debate because people were starting to quote his 'cases ' . We recently had a long debate about CM in another threads and I did not wish to see a person's thread hijacked with another long discussion about him.
I was not aware anyone other than yourself and those responding to you mentioned VS, forgive me if I missed mention of it.

There are many threads discussing Cesar Milan, here is a recent one and you can of course start your own threads.

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=103180&highlight=cesar+milan

There are also some threads about VS if you do a search and of course again you can start your own .

Another moderator has moved some posts from the original thread to this thread to preserve the topic of the original posters thread (the issue of her dog).

You may or may not choose to discuss the cases of TV personalities and food issues in this thread, the choice is yours.

Back in 1974 I was a 17 year old Dog Handler in the Royal Green Jackets.
Feeding the six dogs on our section had never produced any problems, army doctrine said they shouldn't be disturbed with food unless it was clear they had lost interest
It also said that if one dog was given a bone, they were all given one.....dogs being dogs they are very easily jealous.
A newly formed section we did things to the letter and when we got them the large knuckle bones as officially recommended, they all got one.
That's were the trouble started, none of us could get near our dogs who saw fit to guard this occasional treat like....what should I say, 'a dog with a bone'?
We was basically grounded as a dog section for a hour or two!