Yes, exactly.

Wys
x

What extended frustration/discomfort? I don't know about you but when I do treat training, we have fun and play games - e.g. search and find and he loves it! I don't put my dog in a situation where he will fail and the treats are withheld and we always finish on a high note. Some things can be taught in small sections so the dog is always rewarded for something because he already knows some of what is required - it's then just a case of putting it all together. You can also train with treats just by taking notice of the dog and rewarding/encouraging desired behaviour as you see it happen naturally, like 'sit'.

Completely agree. And I've said so to Adam in the past ~ if you're causing frustration/confusion/discomfort to your dog by using what you think is postive reinforcement, then you're not using positive reinforcement!

And this is why I don't think Adam understands learning theory. He can quote the "bare bones" of operant conditioning, but that's it. And as for using it correctly, well, no way!

I'm sorry Adam your making yourself look very silly now. It shows what little understanding you actually have of dog training and Positive reinforcement. As others have said if you make your dog frustrated your not doing it correctly.

If the dog is motivated mainly by treat/toy then even if you praise all the way back to you the dog is still experienceing frustration on the return because that treat/toy is offered but not yet given. Of course it looks nice because the frustration makes the dog run really fast to get back and get the treat/toy.
Of course you can start off with the dog two steps away from you and instant reward, but as you extend the distance the frustration re occurs.

Re e fences, the stock type fences tend not to work on dogs as they have a thick coat and tend to run under the rope just brushing it with the hair, this prevents them getting a stim.
Also because dogs dive through them if they experience the stim they're already half way through so just keep going.
Cattle sheep ect tend to touch these fences with the nose first (to investigate them) this gives them a stim and conditions them to avoid the fence.
Invisible dog fences have a much wider range 2 metres sometimes, so the dog has less chance of running through them and because you condition the dog to turn back from the beep ec the dog learns not to try the fence out!
I tend to recomend the invisible fence is used as a back up to a solid boundary though. Often they are useful for dogs that dig, climb, bite through ect.

When training the recall you start with the dog on lead! So as soon as you press/call you guide the dog back. The dog has no chance to learn to move away!

Adam

omg u for real

anticipation versus pain... and you go for the pain cos u think its kinder to the dog your 'excuses' are getting weaker adam.

How many of the dogs you recall using your method come back with a wagging tail? I wouldnt be surprised if Totts propels herself from her tail it wags so ferociously when i call her.

My two enjoy training. They know when theyre going to training, they get excited...or would that be frustrated in your eyes.

One of my dogs wasnt even food orientated. I trained her to be. Any dog can succeed through positive training.

You know a decent trainer wouldnt need to argue his/her case, they would trust in their tools and methods and ignore those who comment on it, you're doing a poor job of arguing your case, you know nothing about alternative ways of training and you know BOB all about dogs - except how to press the button on your little remote and send a stream of pain into them, you have no reguard for the law as you had three dogs off lead, close to sheep and as far as I'm concerned you are a rubbish trainer - and I wouldnt even class you as a trainer - you're just one of those people who go round saying - "I can fix your dog" one of those cowboy type people who dont care about anything but the money.

What a dreadful way to train a dog (I use the word 'train' loosely here it is more about coercing a dog than training it) . I start training a recall in the house without a lead , perhaps that's the problem Adam, you just don't now how to train dogs.

I still don't see why you think that positive reinforcement causes frustration &/or discomfort. If you are witholding the reward for some reason, then that's not positive reinforcement. The aim of pos R is to set things up for the dog to be successful & get the reward, by shaping, small approximations towards the correct behaviour, in locations where the reinforcers are not blocked or overshadowed by other distractions. Then you work up to more distractions etc, all the time you have that good solid & reliable base to work with. It may sometimes take longer & is not an instant fix, but far better that than a scared, traumatised, unwilling dog or a dog that associates training with pain & fear & suppresses every other normal behaviour for fear of getting an electric shock.