|
Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
|
25-02-2008, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg 
If a dog goes into learned helplessness, it probably isn't learning anything
as it's literally shut down. It's given up trying.Dogs controlling other dogs aren't really shutting them down IMO
Here's a bit about learned helplessness, tis not a pleasant thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/FINAL.P...p/00000062.htm
|
|
|
Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
|
25-02-2008, 04:39 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hShB6M...eature=related
completly spot on!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
|
25-02-2008, 05:33 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcx8q...eature=related
|
|
|
|
Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
|
25-02-2008, 05:45 PM
ok this is a proper one! a BC that jumps. so its why i picked it!
these are my thoughts on it.
I dont have a problem with a dog jumping up & getting excited like that (unless it had a injury) & in any case they were worried about the dog but the handler.
Though the little dog was taking it all in she was a little worried, though not unduly distressed, was just a little worried.I dont really have a problem with that in this case but its important to have notice she was abit concerned.
She reacted to the touch & the foot tap which i DONT think were OTT in this case, but the dog didnt get any feed back when she was doing the desired behaviour, no praise no nothing no reinforcement. I would have liked when she did sit calmley for them to have praised her for sitting with out her moving out of position. Indeed when her owner went to touch her head CM told her not too
So what will happen now is that the owner will repeat it for a while & the dog will learn to sit & wait.
But there will be teaching only on the dogs part, ie the dog gets tapped till it behaves which is negative, instead of positively reinforcing the good behaviour which is positive.
Thats how i have read this one!
|
|
|
Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
|
25-02-2008, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by scarter
............................
But to help you to understand where I'm coming from, I think 'learned helplessness' is probably behind the success of many methods. You seem to equate it to punishment, but the way I see it if you make sure something ALWAYS has the same outcome then sooner or later the dog will stop testing to see what happens. So for example, if you make sure that over and over your recall always succeeds then your dog just assumes that it has no option but to obey. Everytime it's allowed to fail your dog learns that it doesn't have to obey.
In the example of the elephants in india that I posted earlier they tied the baby elephents to trees - by the time they were fully grown elephants the could tie them to twigs and they wouldn't even try to wander off. No different really from putting a dog on a lead? At first the dog/elephant might pull to get away, but in time if you stand firm, or reward it with treats for not trying to escape it will believe it can't. Now in the case of large, powerful dogs they could get away from a small handler quite easily. But they've been conditioned not to. Now whether you get best results from being firm, from physically restraining the dog, or from enticing it with treats and cuddles I would have thought would depend very much on the qualities of the dog and the handler.
You cannot compare an elephant to a dog in their learning processes, elephants have to be"tamed"in order to get them to accept their change from being totally wild to being semi domesticated. Dogs are already domesticated & need to be educated not "tamed"
I hate the fact that a wild animal is used for man's purposes, if you have ever seen the work done with the orphan elephants in Africa they do not need to be tied to bond with their carers, their carers spend 24/7 with them the same way their mother would be & the carers stay with them until they are old enough to form their own matriarchal herd.
Dogs on the other hand have been living in the world of the homeo sapiens for millennium's at first of their own free will & later by"design"
To use the methods advocated by this man is not teaching he dogs humanely, but by domination, force & threat.
Someone mentioned the little dog that could not walk(yes it could not walk not did not want to walk as he stated)properly, it wasn't mothered by the dogs in his"pack"but was being bllied, the poor little dog was almost blind & had severe neurological damage & died within weeks of the program being made from it's medical condition.
The Rottweiler was not "working the sheep"as we would accept here in the UK nor anywhere else I bet, it was running after the sheep, which had obviously been well dogged & so moved simply because the dog was there. It is not the correct way to introduce a dog to sheep, especially one not specifically bred to work sheep, even then border collies of the age of the Rottweiler are not simply let loose on sheep. Rottweilers are not herding dogs they are drovers dogs & used on cattle far more than sheep, so allowing the dog to chase the sheep the way the"shepherd"was doing could have a negative outcome
I never watch CM with the sound on, I have the subtitles on & watch the dogs closely. It is so sad to watch the dogs shut down one after another, gone is their character & life, their tails go down & stay down, they rarely wag, unless it is to show uncertainty, with the tail tucked firmly under the body.
I took my 14 week old BC to a large indoor obedience/breed show yesterday. He only wears a lead outside the house or at the dog training clubs & I do all his training off lead at home, so he has had a lead on(a form of compulsion in my eyes)under a dozen times. He has mixed with dogs at training club, but not the number he met at the show(nor the variety). He was so unfazed by meeting so many people & dogs he didn't even notice that one dog went for him. Mish met him & can vouch that he wasn't affected at all.
His behaviour really pleased me(except that he nicked a sandwich from a friends bag
good job she is a very good friend
I didn't need the slip lead held high up the neck at the top of the neck & pulled tight to get him to walk nicely, if he did something I didn't want him to I stopped him by a verbal instruction.
CM's programs show nothing of basic obedience training classes were the owners can learn how to humanely prevent their dogs from developing unwanted behaviours, unfortunately this would put people like CM out of a job
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
|
25-02-2008, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK
Someone mentioned the little dog that could not walk(yes it could not walk not did not want to walk as he stated)properly, it wasn't mothered by the dogs in his"pack"but was being bllied, the poor little dog was almost blind & had severe neurological damage & died within weeks of the program being made from it's medical condition.
Modern behaviourists liaise with vets to get the info on physical problems - and this is exactly why
.Was this the one also put in a bucket to make it swim as some sort of rehab?!?
CM did not have the info or knowledge to realise the dog could not do what he asked of it.
|
|
|
Location: Romford, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 14,265
|
25-02-2008, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by scarter
This is interesting. I don't know if any of you have ever read a book by Geoff Thompson called "The Elephant and the Twig". He talks about this learned helplessness. In fact, the introduction to the book reads as follows:
Now is that such a bad thing? Say for example that I wanted my dog to stay in the park and not wander out into the traffic. I think I'd much rather rely on the fact that my dog has just been gently conditioned to think it can't leave the park and therefore never tries, than let it use it's powers of reasoning to figure out that roads are dangerous and it might get killed. And I'd much rather my dog just accepted that I was boss and didn't try to work everything through and challenge every instruction given.
Surely EVERYONE that has a large, powerful dog is relying on learned helplessness to control the dog? What's to stop the dog challenging your authority and getting everything his way? Without learned helplessness surely you'd be forced to use brute force at some point?
Beagles are renowned for being escape artists. One of the important tips I received was to always be sure that if I fence my pup in somewhere (for example, with baby gates) to always ensure that the pup can't jump over it. Apparantly, once they learn that they can jump over a barrier and get the fun/tasty stuff on the other side then it's a constant challenge to them and they keep trying - eventually becoming escape artists as adult dogs. Never let their escape bids succeed when they're young (and easier to keep contained) and they're less likely to try when they're older. This is an example of learned helplessness. In a human it's a bad thing because humans WANT to keep pushing the envelope. But we don't want dogs doing it if it makes them impossible to live with, or if it puts them in danger....do we?
Or have I completely missunderstood your point here?
Plus I've never employed the dodgy method of tying them to a tree or a stick or whatever
. They're not even tied to me by the lead. At least 95% of the time they are off lead. It would be nice if dogs just accepted us as boss and do our bidding but why would they do that unless they had confidence in you as their boss. Big powerful dogs are no more difficult to train than little dogs, they each present their own challenges. If you put the effort into training them and treat them with respect they learn to trust your judgement, they follow the rules that you taught them. No I have never used brute force on any dog at any point.
As for escapology my dogs know they can jump the dog gate they stay behind because they are taught to do so not because they think they can't clear it.
|
|
|
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,890
|
25-02-2008, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble
As for escapology my dogs know they can jump the dog gate they stay behind because they are taught to do so not because they think they can't clear it.
|
|