It is, from what you described, your dog appeasing the other dog, CM would say it is submitting..it is saying 'ok you are bigger than me/more mature than me/scarier than me...I am small and innocent, please don't hurt me' or something similar. It isn't an alpha roll....an alpha roll is done to a dog.
Gemma...I think it would be a shame if you left.
CM threads get terribly heated...the pro CMers feel picked on I think as us anti CMers throw words like 'hit/kick/string up/choke' around so everyone gets defensive. Try not to worry about it, it isn't personal...just one of those things.

It does indeed.
Oops...I was multiquoting and didn't spot this!!!
Yes I think Gemma would like Turid!
The website is good...but I think the photos in the book really help you to understand what she means. The website is certainly worth a look and an excellent starting point.

Oh my......I was worried for a moment!

Had your training been that spot on though Gnasher, after you having to repeatedly tell him to stop mounting another bitch in season (you do seem to come across a lot of them)...then he wouldn't even have attempted to mount this one surely??

It matters Mish if someone describes me ... even indirectly ... of being cruel !!

It won't make me delete my access to Dogsey such that I will never come on here again (what a shame, some might say ! ), but it will spur me into action to defend myself.

As I have said a gazillion times before, I am entitled to believe that on the whole CM is a good egg ... NO-ONE is entitled to describe me as a dog abuser, as being cruel, stringing up my dog, kicking him or any other accusation ... and I will leap to the defence of anyone whose reputation is being torn apart on here for no better reason than they use CM's methods.

I am well renowned in our village and beyond for being completely crazy about dogs, followed closely by horses. If ANYONE I know ever saw me being cruel to ANY animal, but certainly a dog or horse, they would have my full permission, and that of my OH, to shoot me. I frequently have the mickey taken out of me at our parish council meetings because I am always the "green old hippy standing up for the trees and the wildlife in general". To be accused of animal cruelty does hurt, I would be a liar if I said otherwise. But I am no victim, so I will bite back!

Gnasher
Noone has said ever that you are cruel to your dog
You have said many times that you dont actually use the CM methods that I find cruel - so if you dont use them why do you assume you are being called cruel??
I think alpha rolling, flooding, kicking, hitting, stringing up, ear pinches to name a few are cruel training methods
If anyone says they use these methods then yes I think they are being cruel

Why is it OK to say that someone is being a bully but not OK to say a TV celeb is cruel?

Purely because I do not agree that he "strings up" dogs, floods them, kicks them, hits them, pinches them or rolls them. Regarding the latter, he "pins" ... rolling implies some sort of violent rolling action over and over, which I sincerely hope he would never do !

CM is a celebrity, so as such to a certain extent he must put up with dissenters accusing him of all sorts. As long as remarks made against him are not libellous, as far as I am concerned, he can laugh his way to the bank and shrug off the insults as just being publicity! I don't believe he is cruel, you do, that's fine, you can say so, this is your opinion to which you are entitled. However, if by implication you accuse ME of being cruel, because I like CM's methods and use most of them on Tai, or accuse Gemma or CC of being cruel, abusive towards animals, etc. etc., because they use Cesar's methods, then I don't think that is right because we are entitled to OUR opinions too. I personally dislike intensely the use of choke chains and other similar gadgets, I think they are cruel, but I would never accuse my friend of being cruel because she uses one on her dog. I would say I personally don't like choke chains, here, look, why don't you try this method of walking him on a loose lead, nice and relaxed, controlling him with your positive energy and a few gentle tssts, which is what I do with Tai - who pulled like an express train when we first got him. The first thing I did was to throw away his choke chain!

A rather muddled post, but I am very tired after a long day and am about to say nite nite I think !

Ramble: you said:

Had your training been that spot on though Gnasher, after you having to repeatedly tell him to stop mounting another bitch in season (you do seem to come across a lot of them)...then he wouldn't even have attempted to mount this one surely??

Tai is a bit of a babe magnet - we call him the Brad Pitt of the dog world !! He is pursued relentlessly by shameless tarts, who interfere with him and make him all unfrocked!

Joking apart, he is very appealing to the opposite sex, and if I had a pound for every owner who has said to me "ooo, my bitch doesn't normally tolerate males sniffing round her", I would be a wealthy woman! He has girlfriends on every corner, several at each pub that we visit, and regulars who we meet along the towpaths or in the various woods around here.

To criticise my training here is a bit rich !! How many entire males do YOU know, Ramble, who will ignore a bitch on heat ... Tai is only a wolf, not an automaton! However good, or not, I am as a trainer, he is never going to totally ignore a female in full season. I think it is amazing quite frankly that just 3 words "Tai Tai come" and an increase in my bike speed was enough to call him off this bitch. I would have expected at the very least to have to stop and grab him, but no, he came. Hal would have totally ignored me, mounted her and I would have had to squirt him with the water bottle to dampen his ardour, at the very least ! And he would have growled at me as I pulled him off her. I am taking no credit for Tai, he is a very good dog, but when we got him he had no manners. He now, thanks to CM's methods, has perfect manners.

Hi,

I'd like to jump in here if I may and try to at least justify my reasons for why I'm anti-CM.

I agree with the basics he states - stay calm, don't raise your voice etc. I believe that if you feel calm inside (and not just look calm on the outside) then a dog will pick up on that. Just as if you feel angry, a dog will pickup on that feeling too and may react differently - but that's as far as my agreement with CM goes. Also, as already stated by many, these aren't his methods. Thousands of trainers use them.

I too have seen him, IMO, mistreat dogs, using undesirable methods, already mentioned. I did as suggested a couple of months ago and watched an episode with the sound off. I'd learned as much as I could on my own about dog behaviour, read a load of books, used only positive methods with my own dogs and any others I train and tried to make a purely objective view of the episode. The programme I saw was the one with the husky (?) that ended up ripping CM's shirt and scratching his arm quite badly when he raised him up off the floor with his lead. Now I don't watch his programmes at all.

What really cemented it for me was when one of the trainers at my local dog training club started using CM's less acceptable methods. I saw the damage done to someone else's dog who will now cower away from this trainer. because of his treatment of this dog, and the blatant disregard for his owner's feeling about it, I decided that my dogs would go from the puppy class to the advanced class. Obviously with a lot of hard work inbetween but there's no way he's taking my dogs off me to hurt them.

I'm not saying everyone who is pro CM would do all of these things. But after seeing first hand just how much harm can so easily be done through a basic lack of understanding of dogs, I am completely against CM's methods.

If he uses methods that aren't cruel or can be considered mistreatment, then could someone please enlighten me because I've missed it completely.

Laura xx

Yeah..he's alpha.... sure.

It couldn't be that you just haven't trained him and blame him for you inability to communicate. It's really pathetic they way people blame their animals for their own failures.

In his Dogstardaily blog, Eric Goebelbecker writes "This kind of dominance is a prism that makes some people see their relationship with their dogs as an ongoing struggle for supremacy. It anthropomorphizes dogs in the worst possible way because it overlays a uniquely human perspective onto a dog's mind and then punishes him for it."

Who told you that this is a quality that dog's should have? It is up to the trainer to make certain behaviours rewarding by reinforcing the dog when they perform them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cant be bothered!!!!! ))))

i have taken off the above post because i cant be bothered to argue the toss again.

In a nutshell......If i Call CM cruel im calling HIM cruel & him alone.

Yes, exactly - that is one of my main reasons for posting. And I believe someone has to stand up for those who cannot speak - in this case, that's the dogs

Yup, sadly!
And because the books are so "well written" and quite clever (including the way he drops names of dog behaviourists who don't actually agree with him!) they appear to make the methods more valid, too.

Also I've noticed that people who know nothing about say, flooding, suddenly become an armchair expert on it ... and won't listen to those who have actually studied it in the context of dog training and behaviour. I find this very difficult because they are adamant they are correct, even though all they've done is read or watch CM!

Yes, this is another reason I post because CM does actually affect the behaviour of dog owners in dog training classes and behaviourals I am involved with! (and I have to use great tact to explain to them the reality - it's the same countrywide).




Wys
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