I think he is talking about an emotional coldness. Some years ago someone else (can't mention them here coz we don't want a riot: but they live with loves and had a tv program ) talked to me about a similar thing.

I cant remember his argument but I think it was possibly about their lack of sentimental attachment?

Wolves a hugely emotional; that is what makes them so difficult as pets and so dangerous. Their greeting of friends is a very emotional affair but it is the same intensity of emotion that can be directed towards attacking or killing another wolf. No they don't mourn pups; but if you read Ray Coppinger he says that his research proved that dogs are attentive to their pups only for a limited period governed (I think) by hormones.

I think he uses the arguments of the lying, cheating, murdering ape to express his misanthropic nature. By contrasting it to the 'noble savage' wolf does of course seem naive, but I think he is deliberately trying to wind people up to make them react.

I agree that nature 'is' and wolves 'are', though I would argue that because humans are supposed to have greater awareness then we should be able to rationally control our own nature to a degree...

I did not !! It was YOU that posted that the Act had changed in 2004, and clearly it has not. There is or was an ORDER outstanding to have the DWA Act changed in NORTHERN IRELAND such that wolves and high% wolf crosses are illegal ... I have not been able to find any evidence that the actual Act has been repealed, and that these animals are now illegal in NORTHERN Ireland - I have been unable to find any mention of Eire.

I think you might be at cross purposes, I dont understand why the post above is related to my post below?

As mine regards geography, as your original post contained an error of geography, which I and another poster picked up on a few pages back. The author mentioned Ireland, you said he must be mistaken, then explained why by discussing the laws of a different country.:

I haven't written anything about any laws changing in N.Ire, I just said i found out that is illegal to keep wolves as pets.
You have said you have found out the opposite.
To be honest, I don't know which of us correct now, not without researching more.
But im happy to stand corrected.

However, that is a separate issue to the one you have quoted me on above.

I've lost the plot here too tbh !! Shall we just shake hands and call it quits !! I got back from work at 9 pm last night, and 7.30 tonight, so am blinking well knackered !! Up again in the morning at 5.30 am, so need some shut-eye.

I wish my hormones had been turned off as far as my kids are concerned - my kids seem to think they have a life long entitlement to my attentions. Digressing. More seriously, I cannot understand why anyone would like to try to keep a wolf as a pet - would it be something to do with male machismo Or is it trying to subjugate something wild

Lol re your kids! My daughter is 22 and as big an emotional and financial drain as she ever was! We are thinking of moving up a welsh mountain and not giving her the address!

My hubby and I have struck up a bit of an email "friendship" with a lovely guy in the States who has a pure wolf, a female. It is legal in some States to have a wolf or a high percentage wolf cross. The people who bred his girl are very very careful and thorough, the wolves are of course captive-bred, the pups are taken off the mother at or before 3 weeks - this may sound cruel in the extreme but wolf cubs mature extremely quickly both mentally and physically, and the mother suffers no distress, nor the cubs, at being taken off their mother at such a young age. There is the issue though of mother's milk, and I personally believe that cubs need their mother's milk beyond this age, but there are excellent milk supplements available in the States I am told that make adequate compensation. This bitch is now fully grown and mature, she must be well into her 2's and could possibly be 3, and she has turned out to be absolutely delightful - to the point where R. says if she didn't look like a wolf, you would think she was an aloof dog. He says she is more obedient than any ordinary dog he has ever had, whilst at the same time maintaining her wolf aloofness. She adores children (all the better to eat you with my dear !!) and is generally a well-balanced girl. She digs for the Olympics of course and is very destructive if left alone, which R tries never to do. During these times though, she will howl.

All these traits my old wolf cross, Hal, displayed ... and he was the most wonderful dog. So it IS possible to keep a captive-bred wolf as a pet - the morality of doing so, aside from legal issues, is a different kettle of fish of course and has been debated long and hard on Dogsey over the years. Some people, like my friend in the States, is neither macho nor dominant - he sounds like the gentlest, most peace-loving person I know. He just loves wolves.

It may have something to do with a misguided macho image but I know an awful lot of women who have them, in fact probably more women. I had this conversation with a friend who has bred wolf-dogs for the last 40 years and the conclusion was its more of a getting close to nature type of thing. They also commented that their customers often had dreamcatchers and were into the whole romantic Native American Indian thing. Of course having a wolf as a pet is exactly the opposite of getting close to nature!

In the USA it is illegal to trade in 'pure' wolves, so people sell 98%, like the subject of this thread. Of course the problem is that most are just Mal x or 'low to no' content animals as the rescue centres call them. Caveat Emptor and all that. Wolf-dogs are now banned in many if not most States as well and the future looks like bringing further legislation. The truth is that few people are able to give these animals the attention that they need.

Henry Beston, the American author and observer of life made the following observation about animals (often hideously misquoted) that perhaps we could all learn something from:

"We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilisation surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronise them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth."

Sorry but I think taking any animal away from its mother at 3 weeks to provide fodder for the exotic pet market stinks!

More appalling as that they kid themselves it is OK to do it

rune

Excellent post and sentiments. Thank you.

rune