Angulation is directly related to the world 'cripple'. I won't get all mathematical on you (unless you want me to) but the angulation directly affects the efficiency, speed, energy efficiency and power of the dog. Both in terms of their ability to generate power and force these hyper-angulated dogs cannot come close the the picture specimen.

My preference, unlike yours is not based on aesthetics. It is based on physical, quantifiable, demonstrable advantages that the old style GSD has over the ones around today.

Let's start with their high inbreeding coefficient, which was caused by the overuse of the first popular dog with no stop - Lord Gladiator. The obsession with some arbitrary 'type' has made the bull terrier one of most (or the most) inbred dog breeds.

The same reason given below. The biomechanics of the skull as well as the effects it had on the soft tissue.

As they are not a breed I know a lot about, I will detere to your knowlagde of the breed.

But my point is that we keep going back to ALL breeds infancy and how they looked better,must of been healthier, how we have messed with them to the point of obscenity.

But surely looks are not the be and end of health.


The Bulldog for instance where they healthier in their infancy, is there proof of this, what proof can be given to suggest the Boxer/Bulldog/ Bullterrier and many more, where better specimens, lived longer, where fitter, healthier , than those of today.

Or are we just going by looks, we prefer a Pug of old to today.

Or are we taking into account the health screening for breeds today , very little inbreeding (close relatives), to days gone by , when to create a breed inbreeding would have at any give time been at its highest.

So until I see the proof , that the Boxer was a healthier dog in the 1900`s , I will keep wondering why we have it in for the pedigree breeder of today.

I don't know that.

Now. Like I wrote the oversuse of Lord Gladiator as a stud created a very shallow genetica pool. Further erosion was caused by other attempt to define type. This also resulted in the increase in deafness - a trait that is associated with white fur in almost all breeds.


But my point is that we keep going back to ALL breeds infancy and how they looked better,must of been healthier, how we have messed with them to the point of obscenity.
But surely looks are not the be and end of health.


Yes, the bulldogs were healthier. They could breathe, they could cool themselves, and they could whelp pups without medical intervention. Their longer muzzle also meant that they did not have maloccluded teeth which promotes caries. Excessive tissue on the back of the mouth. Skinfold dermatitis.

Most of these problems are typical of brachycephalic breeds, including the modern pug.

But there are many many Bulldogs that can self whelp, and breath easily, along with being able to exersice as other dogs do... its all down to good breeding, if you breed correctly you will breed healthily

Not all brachycephalic breeds suffer breathing problems, again its down to good breeding.

Shallow nostrils will play a part in a dogs breathing ability too, one of mine although both are brachycephalic has nice clear open nostrils, the other has not... so you can guess which one has a better capasity for taking in air.

When breeding brachycephalic breeds, these things should also be taken into account in the breeding stock.

Still not sure ho you can claim the dog of old were healthier.. they may not have some of the problems some breeds have today, but as health was not thee most important thing when creating a breed , I just dont get it when people insist the old was better then the present.

Not being argumentative for the sake of it... would love to see any data to prove otherwise.

None. They can exercise at their reduced capacity. The bar is set so low for them that what would be atrocious in other breeds is normal for them.


No such thing as a healthy bulldog. Their very type imposes health penalties (already mentioned) that other breeds never have to deal with.

That's false. They all suffer breathing difficulties. The problem is that are so used to this reduced standard, that what people really mean is that they don't suffer in comparison to themselves. However when you compare them to their original phenotype there is a marked difference and when compared to mesocephalic dogs the difference is astounding.


Like all animals, including humans, when engaged in aerobic activities dogs breathe through their mouth. And all that flesh that has been squeezed into their tiny mouth/throat reduces their ability to breathe.

Bulldogs are famous for their reverse sneezing

Knowledge of anatomy. Open mind. I am not closing my eyes to the fact because I own a brachycephalic breed.

So you have never owned a brachycephalic breed !!

Yet you can talk with such experience, and an open mind!!

GSD time-lapse animation

http://www.bloggen.be/hd/archief.php?ID=169374

Taken from this lengthy (but worthwhile) pdf

http://jantie.demeyere.googlepages.c...sdysplasie.pdf

Great animation! and it really gets the point home when put next to the horse.
Interesting seeing the bones what is going on isnt what I though
I thought there would be much more stress on the hips but the angles shown there show the hips at the same angles but both the knee and the hock are at a totaly different angle from what was origonaly intended for the joints by mother nature. No wonder the hocks wabble in young dogs - there is a huge stress on muscles to hold that all right

Also for other dogs.
I always find it interesting that breeders always argue that these gross adaptions were to help the dog in its origonal jobs (which the breeds no longer do) so short nose and wrinkes are to help in fighting - but then you look at how the breed looked at the start - when they were actually doing the job they were bred for and they looked nothing like as bad as the dogs today