If you train your dog to walk ahead, wether for close heel work or loose lead walking, you can`t execute a left turn. That`s why one trains to the line of the leg.
With dogs who have reactive issues, I train to behind the line of the leg for side-on positions. That reinforces the deferment (for the dog) and allows you to control their space better.

BTW - I have never felt the need to hurt a dog to make it do what I want, and I have had dogs with issues.
The idea of hurting a dog just to make it do basic obedience I find pretty sad.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Yeah you see that in OB trained collies sometimes, mostly as by product of overdoing the training (excessive reps) with reward based methods, but hey its kinder lol.



Adam thinks he knows more about Obedience than Mishflynn
Check her website before you dig yourself in any deeper, Adam!

I would happily send my dogs to Mishflynn - I cant get Louie to heel for more than 5 minutes at a time and he doesnt respond to anything when we're out on a walk - I've just about given up with it and accepting him the way he is (A little Bl**der) he will heel with the clicker off lead and on lead on the drive and in the garden but I cant get him to do anything else except other basics and some other things I've taught him on and off lead in the park - heel is the hard one for him, but I would never but an E-collar on him to get him to heel - I want him to be happy at the side of me like Zola is for Mishflynn not scared of putting a foot wrong like your Jacca is!

Adam, you've hit on the major gripe I have with physical aversives. Dogs habituated to them mask the distress they cause. Take a close look at your own videos and see that little dog start to habituate to the shocks you give and see his reactions change from severe stress signals to lesser stress signals.

You worry him, Adam. Both the before and after videos show it - the before more exaggerated that the after, but never-the-less his body language shows it.

Also look at your Guru's site, the infamous Castle. Although he's changed a lot of the content now after being picked up on his own descriptions, the last time I looked at what can happen when introducing a dog to a collar and how to counteract it is sickening to even the most hard hearted

I've no doubt you've read it and obviously dismissed it which may account for your 'turning a blind eye' to what your dogs are so very obviously trying to tell you

I wish, Adam, you hadn't evaded the issue I raised and wrongly used it to have a misplaced dig at another member. I clearly said "fears the alternative".

Adam seems to be picking and choosing who he responds to.

However - his main objective - to get people talking about his fav subject - seems to have been achieved.

Mish you are talking about training, as far as I am concerned Adam isn't he is talking about the use of e collars and for me they don't come under the category of training, they come under the category of dog abuse .

True but, let`s face it, he is making himself look worse with every post. And we are posting a lot of excellent training info for positive methods.
I`m sure no-one reading this will think - hmm... that guy can almost train his little dog to walk to heel by giving it electric shocks - let`s ask him for advice!...

Very true. However, I am taking some comfort in the fact that I can't see anyone being persuaded to go down that path after reading this thread.

I agree.

In fact, there is so much good information on this thread about positive methods, I'm wondering if the title should be changed ...

Well done all of you promoting the use of pos reinforcement & pointing out the error of Adam's ways & the cruelty of using e-collars

That's probably exactly the opposite effect that adam & his cohorts want. So anyone reading this thread & considering using pain to train a dog should hopefully be put off by now!