Curious Bees
The story goes that some bees came across a stained glass window and looked in, each saw the contents through a different colour. When reporting back to the colony they all disagreed as to what they saw. Disagreements can turn nasty, into wars too (as we know) and in fact, we should realise that we are all after the same thing.

Jess. I wasn't aware that I was being nasty ... impatient, frustrated, yes. More times than I care to mention I have quoted a reference from a scientific paper, not Billinghurst's book. But Evie just continued to completely ignore it and come out with something that was untrue.

My husband is an ex medical scientist - he has an Honours Degree in Zoology, specialising in mammalian Physiology, Biochemistry and Human Physiology. He continually reads scientific research papers on the net, for which he has to pay, papers that are so heavy I can even understand the Abstracts! He is able to understand these and disseminate them and explain them to me in words of one syllable.

Wolves and dogs require EXACTLY the same diet, a diet which must consist of raw bones, meat and a LIMITED amount of raw veg (the definition of which I do not have to bore everybody yet again over!), Not the word limited ... it means a little. Too much veg would indeed be bad for dogs and wolves, because it would overload their digestive processes. They are primarily carnivores, not omnivores like us and pigs. They cannot cope with a lot of veg, which is why we only feed a small amount of raw pureed veg to our dogs, or should do for a balanced diet.

I DO therefore keep an open mind, I AM prepared to admit when I am wrong, but when I am right ... not because I say so, or hubby, or Billinghurst, but research scientists highly respected in the field of mammalian physiology, canid physiology etc. etc., ... and I present the facts in a simplified form, I am not going to accept it when someone argues with these facts through stubbornness and an unwillingness to admit that she may be wrong. Very human, but not very conducive to learning, which is something that we all on here are anxious to do.

Billinghurst's book is now quite out of date, to my knowledge he hasn't published a new edition, but the basic principles are there for the reading in a very easy form, despite being muddled and in my opinion very poorly presented and written. Which is why we should all keep up to date with the latest research etc., something I rely on hubby to do for me as I'm a bit of a thicko!

Dogs and wolves are classified as the same species - I've already posted the Smithsonian passage - the fraction of a percent difference is purely behavioural, not physiological. This means that they need exactly the same diet, the diet for which they have crushing molars (to process vegetable food).

It's there for all who to read and learn.

I wasn't aware that I am in a corner - just the opposite, Evie is, and has taken her ball away, a great shame because I was enjoying our debate.

Jess: just read your Curious Bees - I had missed it before. I like the analagy (spelling? I never know how to spell that damn word).

You're probably too young to remember this, but as a little girl I remember Arthur Askey singing a song "I'm a busy busy bee, I'm a busy busy bee, bzz bzz bzz bzz" - that's all I can remember, but your story reminded me of it ... buried deep in the empty space that is commonly called My Mind !

I expect Helena will remember it ... she's even OLDER than me !!:smt040 :smt081

Gnasher I am shocked and disgusted at the way you have spoken to Evie, that was very much uncalled for and I think you should be deeply ashamed with yourself.

There are 1 million and 1 different ways to feed a dog and I personally am not about to claim that I know the best way to feed every dog in the world. However I do claim that I know the best way to feed my dogs as I am the only person who actually knows them and witnesses how they are on different feeding methods. You quoting endless 'studies' will not convince me otherwise. You have admitted that you have only read one book about feeding dogs, Mr Ian Billinghursts BARF diet. You 100% agree with him and follow his diet. That it great, however I (like most of the raw feeding world) prefer to do a huge amount of research and I believe that his way of feeding is strongly outdated and there are many flaws with it. There has been a vast amount of progression in the knowledge of both dog and wolf nutrition since the book was written.

There is a group on yahoo called rawfeeding, it has over 10,000 members who feed raw prey model and no vegetables, many of those members have been feeding their happy healthy dogs this way for over 20 years.

I have no problem with the way you feed your dogs, I also have no problem with the way Jess feeds hers or Evie feeds hers. To believe that there is only one good way to feed a dog is, in my opinion, ignorant and close minded.

Rant over, apologize if I have used any bad language but I became very ticked off at the way this discussion has progressed.

Nuff said.

Lara, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Books are nowhere near as good as t'internet for researching a subject. I have done a massive amount of research on the internet regarding raw feeding - the only book I have read is Billinghurst's. So frankly your insinuation that I have not done my research is quite extraordinary.

I consider the internet better for actually researching a topic for two reasons 1) OH has access to various scientific research sites for which he pays an annual fee, and which go into a subject extremely deeply and frankly are so highbrow that neither you nor I would be able to understand them (unless of course you have an Honours Degree in Zoology, Biochemistry and Mammalian Physiology, in which I apologise); and 2) it tends to mean that the research is bang spanking up to date, and of course free because OH pays by subscription. Your insinuation therefore that I have not done any research, unlike yourself who of course has rightly done masses, is therefore inaccurate. Before OH changes anything even slightly radically, he will put an enormous amount of research into it, therefore you can imagine what happened before we converted Hal to BARF.

I am fully aware of the Yahoo raw feeding site, I subscribe to the Britbarf site, also run by Yahoo, and receive all the postings that are made on there on a daily basis ... and I read them.

I may have been a bit over the top in my postings, for which I sincerely apologise, but I shoot from the hip, always have done, where dogs are concerned I don't take any prisoners. Diet is far too important to get wrong. But at least I get my facts right (with the exception of the omnivore/carnivore cock-up!). Neither you nor Evie do either, viz:-

- you insinuate I have not done my reading or research, just because I have only read one book

- you fly in the face of accepted scientific fact, never a very sensible thing to do, unless of course you are a scientist yourself

- you repeatedly ignore those facts in my postings that you don't like, because they prove your's wrong.

I will repeat yet again : Dogs and Wolves have carnassial teeth to shear flesh, and crushing molars to process vegetable food.

When someone says to me wolves (and therefore dogs) should not eat veg because they are not supposed to, what do you expect me to do, when clearly you are flying in the face of nature? These animals have crushing molars to process vegetable food - FACT. And I deal in facts when it comes to something as important as the correct feeding for our dogs, NOT fiction.

Rant over - now group hug :smt008

lol

Gosh we love our dogs don't we!

Sighhhhhhh

http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowne...whynotbarf.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm

This will be my final post in this thread, in fact, this is the straw that broke the donkeys back, it will be my final post on dogsey full stop. I much prefer another forum where people are actually open minded and allow people to express different opinions without bullying them, don't pass their opinions off as facts and don't think we should all fly to the floor and kiss their feet because their husband has a PHD (pretty huge d*ck?).

Bye.

Well if my old man has a huge d*ck, it's the first I've ever heard of it !

You obviously know something I don't Lara !


:smt039 :smt039

Gosh, you never said anything to me about his P.H.D. Now I AM jealous
Thought he just had the common or garden variety PhD

oh deary.. i've been checking this thread occasionally as i am generally interested in switching to raw in the future. i do a fair bit of reading and my OH is studying genetics which also covers zoology and that kind of thing and so i get regularly updated! as i'm at uni i also get a subscription to most of the online journal sites which provides some very interesting and challenging material!

i'm just curious as to why, if dogs require a small amount of vegetable matter, why they are not just fed a rabbit now and again? surely thats the closest (or exactly the same as) the wolf equivalent?

i have just read the abstract of what looks live a very interesting paper, entitled "Diet of the maned wolf, Chrysocyon brachyurus (Mammalia : Canidae), during wet and dry seasons at Ibitipoca State Park, Brazil". this research shows that fruit makes up a significant part of this wolf's diet but, as i can't seem to get the full text, i don't know for what reason this is. prevention of kidney stones is one stipulation, but this was only noted as a consequence of the wolf being fed a meat only diet, when it has evolved to cope with a high percentage of vegetable consumption. obviously this does not directly apply to our dogs and their closest relatives, but i would love to see the benefits of fruit in this wolf's diet but i'll have to wait until i go back to uni.. if anyone would like to see the abstract let me know and i'll post it!