I have just skimmed this for the time being, as I am having to go out - so will read it properly when I get back. Thanks for posting it though, it looks interesting.

I am not having a go at anyone for being a vegetarian Spot. As I say, I was one myself for a number of years. I was just passing comment that many people have said to me that the sight of little lambs running around the hills is what put them off eating all meat - and yet hill sheep live a very natural life. To me, that is extremely important. It is also extremely important that they get a humane and quick end, and therefore we use a small, local abbattoir.

What would be a natural death for a sheep Spot?

I don't have any problem discussing any animal welfare issue - I find it all very interesting ... whether that be hunting, vivisection, eating meat etc etc etc. If you would rather not discuss anything, I have no problem with that either.

Choosing not to eat animals does not go hand in hand with how they are farmed - IMO vegetarian do not want to eat animals regardless of how they are raised whether natural or not. Yes some may look at those fluffy little lambs and think I dont want to eat them and then go on the natural route that they do not wish to eat any animal regardless of how natural a life it lives. I just didnt understand how an animal lives a more natural life equates to vegetarianism, you say YET the lambs are raised naturally but why does that make a difference?

You say you dont have a problem discussing animal welfare etc etc - so why the rolling eyes just because someone has a different outlook on life to you? I think you'll find I have discussed many things on here, not sure why you would think I wouldnt feel able to discuss anything?

I would have thought that the sight of HOW these animals are slaughtered, such as I have witnessed with those programmes, is far more likely to sway people over to vegetarianism than the sight of them running around on the hills too? I mean, it's natural to see them like that, and we all know we end up eating them, but it wouldn't make me want to be a veggie, whereas, those programmes almost did, quite horrific and graphic too, not nice.

I think your rolling eyes bit Spot, was due to the fact that there is no such thing really in the farming industry as a "natural" death is there? I mean, if an animal dies of an illness or suchlike, then it wouldn't end up on the dinner table, so there IS no natural death for a farmed animal whether it be organic, free range or whatever.

Certainly that has put many off of eating meat Im sure, but why would of thought of seeing animal run around make people want to eat meat because they live a more natural life?

What made you choose to eat meat?

Of course there is no natural death for farm animals and some people turn veggie for just that reason, sorry if I didnt make the point very well but surely asking for an explanation would of been a little less condicending?

I didn't choose Spot, it is inbred in me, my mother fed it to me as soon as I had a set of teeth, and I never, ever thought of being vegetarian until seeing those programmes. Notice I said "thought" there, coz it never actually did! Plus of course I like it and don't want to turn.

arh but how many times have you been asked why you eat meat? Im sure veggies get asked a lot more times why they dont

As humans we are Omivores...hence the not eating meat is the un-natural stance if you like.

I am not having a go - but I think you will find that is why people ask. (I was also a veggie for a while but I was very unhealthy on that diet so I have moved back to eating meat - we only use our local butcher or the farmer down the road but if I think about it too much I cannot eat it )

Thanks again for that Red Collar. It has made really interesting reading, and I reiterate how I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall of the working group.

I agree it is a decent summary considering the diversity of the members of the independent working group.

I do know that changes cannot happen overnight, and it takes a while for surveys to be set up and calculated. I do think though for the welfare issues surrounding snares, the recommended steps should be put in place immediately and the surveys should be done without hesitation.

Whatever the outcome though, I still truly believe that snares pose real welfare issues, as well as being totally indiscriminate (although I don't like them being used for foxes or rabbits either!) and I am not sure 100 surveys would change my view on that.

I am sorry Spot, but my choice to become a vegetarian WAS due to the fact that I didn't like the way that most supermarket meat is farmed and how it is slaughtered. I have discussed my position with other vegetarians, and some agreed that was why they had also made the choice not to eat meat. Just because it is not why you, or people you have spoken to, decided to abstain from eating meat, that doesn't mean it isn't why some decide to go down that route. In fact, Linda McCartney stated on many occasions that when she saw the lambs gambolling in the fields, it made her question her decisions on meat eating, and ultimately why she became vegetarian. People have lots of reasons for deciding not to eat meat. I was merely stating what I had been told and my own experience.

For me, and others I have spoken to, the welfare of farmed animals and the way they are slaughtered is of utmost importance. I think it makes a difference to me, and others like me, because we enjoy eating meat yet we want to make sure that the animals we are eating live a good life and are killed humanely.

The rolling eyes (for which I apologise, as it was unnecessary!) was just due to the fact that sheep are farmed to be eaten ... end of story. It is a fact of life. I don't think it is because you have a different outlook to me - surely you can also see that livestock on farms are kept to feed the country.