Ditto

Just something to add to the melting pot, i know a lot of folks who seek 'pet' breeders in certain breeds, i.e the German Shepherd, as they do not like the way the show type is falling, I hardly think this makes them bad people.
I have a first cross..purposley bred to create a dual working n pet terrier, she failed on the prior as never had the flame, but a loving pet she is. She come from health tested stock, and had a far better HOME upbringing then a lot of show bred dogs.
I purchased a KC registered English Springer Spaniel, from a small hobby breeder who doesn't show, nor work her bitch [the sire was a field trial winner though, but mother was a show type] but had a bitch of a sound temperament, good charcter , who passed all health checks and went on to produce astounding puppies, does this make the breeder a puppy farmer? Uhm NO!, hence way I've put my name down for a up from the next litter she breeds
Take my chosen breed of Spaniels, if i went to a show breeder i would get a huge, hulking, jowly,clownish type spaniel..yet if i went to a field trialling champion breeder i would end up with a small collie type, maniac,dog thats not what I'm after. So i sought a pet breeder, who breeds a dual type dog..and found perfection.
Those who say those who breed from non show dogs, or don't keep a pup everytime they breed really are making sweeping statements..and little children who play with fire more often than not end up getting their fingers singed.

Sadly I could`nt agree more, [ agreeing `sadly` in terms of whats happening to the breed I mean ].
IMO the worst thing to happen to Collies was being KC recognised for the Show ring. I have always loved Collies for their diversity of look, sizes, and their work ethic. These days I`m seeing more and more of what I consider empty eyed `clone dogs` which is just not what Collies are about

On the Showing side, I think all dogs bred should only be bred with the intention, [ not just the hope ], of them being the healthiest very best examples they can be of their breed, whether to be Shown or not.

I dont believe crossbreeds should be purposely bred for the `pet only` market, my reasoning being for every `purpose bred` Sprollie [ for examle ], there will already be another in a rescue waiting for a home, born from carelessness. I would go as far as to say there are so many `careless` bred crosses, and always will be, that no one need ever deliberately breed a `pet only` crossbred litter to `helpfully` cater for that market
.
I honestly believe there are now so many amazing breeds already in existance, [ in the Show ring, in working realms, in pet only homes, and yes in rescues ], that I don`t believe there is any `need` to deliberately develop any new breeds by crossing either, I truly believe that there are more than enough breeds with working abilities to fulfil all, [ legal ], dog `jobs` for which they are needed, be it Protection, Military, Sniffer, SAR, Guide, etc etc.
[ bearing in mind apart from Guide work, many if not most dogs doing a lot of the other jobs I mention are plucked from rescues, as are most Hearing dogs for the Deaf who take a lot of small `accidental` crossbreeds, plus some gifted to HDFTD purpose bred pedigree dogs I believe ].

Humans as self proclaimed guardians of Breeds should be working to eliminating every breed specific health issue our species has unwittingly bred in among already existing breeds before ever considering starting up a new breed, or indeed deliberately crossing breeds for the pet or any other market.
Lets face it, anyone breeding crossbreeds as pets but not in a concentrated `new breed` development program, [ ahem ], are not developing a new breed when they advertise their latest first cross litter in the free press or on the less than scrupulous internet sites, most of them imo commonly coming from whatever dogs they happen to have which they can mate then attach a silly cutesy name to, to make them sound `fancy` as they leap on to the bandwagon.
They are mostly just fuelling whatever is in fashion for their own gain, [ or to claim an accidental mating as a deliberate `designer dog` litter so they can make money from their error as designer dogs - mongrels / crossbreeds/whatever term people want to use fetch higher prices than genuinely well bred pedigrees if they have a cutesy `designer` name attached...], but certainly not for the dogs` benefits

Oh if only I had a pound for every time I`ve heard of people handing a young Collie in to a rescue because they thought they were literally `born` trained, "like the ones on One Man And His Dog ", then found out that was`nt actually true [ and yep, I`ve had it said to me just like that when I was a volunteer for a Collie rescue, some people really do think it when they buy a pup at a house with a tatty often used sign outside advertising ` Collie puppies for sale, perfect family pets, £80 each ` :smt021 ].

.

The cross breeds from accidental litters are not from health tested parents who have excellent temperaments generally.
Not everyone is willling or able to take on an 'unknown' crossbreed.
I just dont' see the harm in breeding first gen crosses as long as all the health checks etc are in place, it is not the same thing as the cross breeds that are in rescue at all.
Taking on a rescue dog involves a different sort of commitment that not everyone is willing to do or able to do.

I wouldn't say most military dogs or sniffer dogs etc are plucked from rescue, many are bred and some are donated from other organisations.
Hearing dogs use a lot of rescues, at the moment...
Other assistance dogs charities, as they become more established, tend to start their own breeding progrmammes as they need 'specifics' for temperament, size etc. A lot of those dogs are first gen crosses.

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I am not talking about those sort of breeders though Patch.
I am talking about genuine dog loving pet owners who go about their breeding programme in a sensible, responsible way (not necessarily of crosses I hasten to add, that is a seperate issue that seems to be merging..)I am talking about Mrs Smith and her Golden bitch who is a beautiful, friendly bitch, of excellent health and temperament. Mrs Smith has owned dogs all her life and has alwasy fancied breeding. Many people comment on her dog...saying if she ever did have a litter please could she contact them and her friend and fellow dog walker has a suitable male. She is willing to provide aftercare etc and has homes for more pups than her bitch could have. Why not do it?????
(Mrs Smith obviously is a fictional and idealistic character of about 60.... ) The sort of pet breeder that you don't hear about much as they go about it quietly and without a fuss.
I am not talking about people who are catering for the designer dog market, I am talking about people who may or may not cross their dog (that was a seperate issue initially) and breed an occasional litter in a reputable manner.
Why not??????


I know, I know I said I wouldn't say anymore...but it feels like people are suggesting I'm supporting unscruplous breeders who churn out designer dogs for extortionate prices. I'm not.

As your stepping out we will have to agree to differ, I just do not think breeding because there is a 'pet' market for it is a good thing but then in many things in life it comes down to supply and demand and unfortunately in my eyes there will always be those ready to exploit that demand. As I said I also disagree with breeding just because someone else likes the look of your dog and wants a puppy

Dogs to me are not commodities to be used to supply a market but again thats just my opinion and obviously we differ on that, so be it.

I also dont understand why taking on a rescue is so difficult or more demanding than a puppy ore requires any more commitment than any other dog.

So what is the difference of "supply" to a show environment and "supply" to a pet environment... ? If the dogs are of good health and temperament and have good homes lined up (all the normal criteria for breeding) then why should it matter that they are not up to "show standard"
I would argue that some of the best dogs I've had/met have been cross breeds or dogs that didn't quite "make the cut" and that many "show standard" dogs leave a lot to be desired... And lets face it most dogs are pets first and foremost anyway

Perhaps an element of snobbery in this argument .....

I think you probably don't hear about this kind of breeder, because this kind of "pet breeder" is rare in the extreme.

"Perhaps an element of snobbery in this argument.".. Sorry Ian but I don't understand what you mean by this can you explain it