Who said I needed to use any corrections at all with him...

I didnt say `force` anyway, I said `negative`. The mental effect of negatives can be every bit as bad as negative physical correction.

I know there's a lot of training jargon flying round here way over my head but I assume a correction to be something/anything that corrects unwanted behaviour so in my simple world, a correction has been used....no?.


Oh yes you did

Really interested in this Patch...could you explain a bit more or point me to some websites.

My apologies, you are absolutely right, I worded soooo badly, I should have explained what I meant re mental `force` but I thought it differently to how it came out - I had a senior blond moment methinks

This one is a good resource with many references and reviews of useful reading and video`s, and gives a good basic outline under the header Stress In Dogs.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm#st

HTH but if it does`nt, do let me know and I`ll find more specific things if you can give me scenarios you may have questions about :smt002

Thanks great site with some very interesting stuff but also some highly dodgy (IMHO) bits eg the unreferenced debunking dominance article. But I can now see where a lot of the stuff written on this forum has come from eg the analogy of dog/wolf and human/chimp hmm!

I couldn't though find anything on the mental effects on negatives only a bit about flooding causing trauma in humans.

The original mainly known dominance / wolf / pack theory was from John Fisher but he himself debunked his own theory as he realised he had got it wrong. Sadly he died before being able to rewrite it all which I understand he had planned to do.

OK, mental effects and how to describe something specific to give you an idea. [ on that site it was that particular stress section which I thought explained it ok but people dont always read things the same way of course, and perhaps it was not specific enough ].

The fear of a punishment can result in high stress behaviours. Consider when people say their dog had a toilet accident and the dog `knew it had done wrong`, because of hiding away, or eye / facial expression, tail down, standing a bit hunched, that sort of thing. Those are classic behaviours of a dog which is in fear at some level, which even just an impatient sigh from the owner can induce without shouting and without laying a finger on the dog, but just by negative demeanour can cause the dog anxiety and stress which in very sensitive dogs can be overwhelming.

Its something seen sadly all too often by those of us involved in rescue. One of my own dogs was not physically punished in his original home apart from being slapped on the face for trying to give affectionate licks. He was however, mentally abused by being constantly ignored or pushed away because he `wouldnt do what the owners wanted` - he is one of my three deaf dogs and nope the owners didnt realise he was deaf, [ they had him for a year and he`s a white Border Collie which is a bit of a clue let alone the other obvious signs ! ].

I think I do see it more acutely in them because positive facial and body language communication is what they thrive on, and because of them I am very aware of other dogs reactions to their handlers when they scowl or huff or whatever without them doing anything physical to their dogs and those dogs` stress signals are as loud to me as a piercing bark is to most people.

Dont know if I have put that very clearly, [ probably not ], but I will find you some resources tomorrow which give mush better explanations of how dogs are affected by non-physical punishment.

Yep, agree with most of the above but I see now your comment -

"The mental effect of negatives can be every bit as bad as negative physical correction."

wasn't a dig at any particular training method, more a generalisation of inappropriate application?

The comments on that site describe the normal signs of stress that could occur for a number of reasons. and -

"If your dog is repeatedly exhbiting these signs during training, it may be time to re-evaluate either the training methods, the environment, or your behavior."

This to me sounds like good advice to a novice trainer who may not be fully aware of her dog's sensitivities and not any reason to consider any one method better than another in general.

Your above post is mostly about phyisical punishment[edit:sorry misread your 1st para], and the example of constantly ignoring and pushing away doesn't sound to me like the correct application of any recognised training method, more of a frustrated owner who knows no better.

Strange how one can focus so much on 1% As i mentionned before training concist out 99% praise! which has as an effect that the dog is happy and willing to work for you. But there ae circumstances that the dog has to be repremanded, somethimes even to keep him alive. And if i have the choise between being harch with my dog once or possibly losing him in an accident i chose the first without any hessitation. Which doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of time it is praise

Greetings


Johan

Me too.........