You tested the collar on your arm but you put it on your dog's neck, necks are a lot more sensitive than arms are.

You never said that these behaviourists were supposed to be experienced with DA dogs, we can only reply to what you put not what you miss out because we are not mind readers.

I quote MY experiences and that is what happened, whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me.

As to not knowing other breeds, you haven't a clue what breeds I have experience of or what dog training and behaviour I have so stop assuming I am an idiot, if I was I wouldn't have gone into these collars before condemning them.

Stop being insulting, if you want others to listen to you you need to listen to them as well.

How do you know if I would be upset or not, you don't know me, I would be very upset if I saw an E collar on any dog including your's even if you don't use it as you say, it is there and can be used, that is enough for me.

How did you work out what level of shock he needed to take notice of it?

For those that don't know, when you introduce an E collar to a dog you have to first work out what level you need. To do this you start at the lowest setting when the dog is distracted by something. If he doesn't react you try then next setting and so on until you get a reaction to the shock. The reaction can be just a shake or something else, that is the level you are supposed to use. This level will not stop a dog that is after prey, the dog's adrenalin is high so the dog doesn't feel the shock, to get a dog's attention when after prey you need to put the shock up quite a lot to get through the adrenalin rush.

Just to demonstrate that all sentient beings react differently to the same or similar sensation, when I used the Slendertone it was painful. Not only that, but no matter how I used it (and I used two different ones as I thought the first was faulty) the nerves down my legs reacted (even though I was using it on the stomach) and caused a dull, nagging ache (akin to toothache) for the rest of the day.

Having tried both the Slendertone and an ecollar on myself, I would say the sensations are totally different. The e-collar sensation went from not feeling it at all on the lower levels to a jolting pain at the first level I could feel it.

Gnasher, if your hubby is a zoologist, he will, no doubt, have a good knowledge of learning theory. He will, therefore, know that when using positive punishment it has to be at a high level (and this will be different for each individual) for it to work effectively in one or two repetitions. If it doesn't work after one or two repetitions, it will never work on the aversive level set. With this in mind, if Ben reacted so quickly to the collar, the aversive had to be strong enough for it to have worked.

It has to be remembered that dogs are stoic creatures and can suffer a great deal before it becomes apparent to the human observer.

Good, that's great Julie, you're happy to confine your terriers to a life on the lead, but I am not happy to do that with my dog.

My dogs are happy, healthy BECAUSE they are allowed to run free, to chase, to hunt, to dig holes, to enjoy life. Were they confined to a leash and a harness, they would be miserable. The only choice we would have would be to work them in harness - to buy a rig, but they cost thousands of pounds and we cannot afford it. Nor do we have a large enough vehicle to carry everything.

Even then, even exercising them in harness, I still think that dogs need to run free. But you need to be able to control them, to have a good recall, and we have got that level of control with Ben now. We are thrilled for him.

I want to say good to you too but the use of shock collars make that impossible, and my previous dogs had loads of off lead time, just not near livestock and as far away from wildlife as we could manage.

My two now don't go off lead but senility means Mollie can't always find us and she panics if we let her off lead, Betty is a work in progress but being so tiny I am a bit afraid to let her run free in case someone or thing hurts her.

No they are NOT - not the inside forearm, that is an extremely sensitive area which is why I chose it. You will have to do better than this I'm afraid. I know you are desperate to try and prove how cruel I am just because you don't happen to agree with what I have done, but I am afraid you are not going to be able to.

My dear girl, if I dotted every i and crossed every t, my posts would be even more rambly and long than they are!! So sorry I omitted to say that the chosen behaviourists were experienced in DA - I would have thought that was stating the obvious, but there you are, you can't win sometimes

It is abundantly clear to me that you DON'T have experience of my type of dogs, I don't need to ask. It's obvious. I am sorry if I caused you offence, not intended.

when did I ever say how I used the e collar - other than that I put it on the dog to get him used to wearing it. I was extremely careful to give no more information, knowing that you would jump straight in onto the attack!

Actually what you describe is perfectly correct. We found that we needed to go up to 20 on the Dogtra - which is considered to be a low setting, at the upper end of low. As you rightly say, you need to watch very carefully at the dog's reaction. You do not want to see the dog yelp, you are looking for a head shake - again as you rightly say. Again, you are quite right when you say that sometimes with a dog like Ben with a high prey drive you have to break through the adrenaline rush - after they have made that initial break after, eg, after a deer, you have a small window of opportunity. If the dog has not responded to your "Come" - he will, but not on the very first occasion of using the e collar because as you say the adrenaline takes over - then you need to give a zap - on about 10 - if you have got your timing right, then the dog will recall. But I cannot emphasise how important the timing is - you have a window of probably less than 3 seconds. Otherwise, as you rightly say, you would need to give a stim of least 20 and the dog may well vocalise which is most upsetting and you have failed. We have only had this happen with Ben once when he and Tai were being walked together off lead and a muntjac got up right under their feet. They were off like rockets, luckily OH was alert but not alert enough. Tai came back but Ben carried on, ignoring the first "Come" for a further couple or so seconds and he received a higher stim which made him yelp. He has never ever ever gone this long before without turning, and has never ever ever since. However, if you were too slow, and he managed to keep after the deer for as long as 5 or 6 seconds, then you would have to give him a sustained stim, which is something we have never done or had to do.

If for some reason you were asleep, and the dog was really into the hunt, then the red mist comes down and the dog will ignore even the highest setting. I have been told by an owner of Salukis that this is what happened with her, such is their prey drive. But for my Ben, the e collar has been his saviour.

A high setting on the Slendertone is like a punch in the stomach - and a similar setting on my arm with the Slendertone was like a punch on the arm!! The muscles contract in a very strange way, like they are being squeezed up in giant fist. To a dog who does not know what it is, it must be most alarming, which is why they can yelp - it is like when you prick yourself with a needle and you shriek "ow". But the pain passes immediately. Or it did with me, we are all different with how we feel and tolerate pain.

You are wrong about the e collar having to be at a high level. The whole idea is that it is not. The aim is never to go above 20, unless you have to. The most important thing to remember about e collars is that you cannot day dream, you MUST watch your dog the whole time - otherwise you could find yourself in a situation where you have to high stim, something that should not be necessary and certainly is not with Ben.

I don't mind my boys chasing wildlife - they've had the odd pheasant, several rabbits and squirrels - but we have to draw the line at deer because of the distance the deer can and will travel. The boys are fast enough to keep up, but for obvious reasons we don't want them disappearing.

Around livestock, we ALWAYS have them on the harness just in case. Ben actually is fine with sheep, but Tai would chase them and try and play with them, he views them as dogs not prey, but obviously both are a no no.

Ours were small enough to follow rabbits down rabbit holes so we did our best not to let them chase or we could have lost them in the warrens on the common. Always felt so guilty with any death no matter what they caught even the rats seemed sad to us

I know - I hate it when they kill anything, but it is nature and because they are raw fed it is good for them to eat fur and feather as well as meat and RMBs.

No chance of my 2 heffalumps getting stuck down any hole - they both weigh 45 kilos each and are enormous - not fat, but just very large dogs!

Well at least you won't fall over them at that size like I did with tiny 2lb Betty this morning LOL