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Location: UK
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13-05-2009, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Pidge 
Just read NILF. We do do that alot with him actually. This is it. He's a very well trained, well behaved dog aside form all of these ''issues''. It's a pain in the bum.
Well trained dogs can still have "issues" which is one reason why they need to be looked at from the root if possible, and the causes addressed
Wys
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13-05-2009, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by Pidge
That is interesting. I am running EVERYTHING by our lil helpers though first just to be sure to keep consistency but sounds great.
If I was a betting man I would put a lot of cash on there being a dietary issue here (as well as other things). I feel confident that (provided he is otherwise healthy) changing his food will make a huge difference!!
Re the helpers - do they all agree? only if you have several that are kind of, erm how can I put it - well, if you have one behavioural programme that can be altered a huge amount if you try other things.
For instance if I suggested a "control of attention" programme to a client, I'd be really peed off if someone else suggested a "pack leader" approach or something else to my client, or even suggested alternatives to a particular probem (eg biting or whatever) as it would negate my own suggestions and also possibly mess up the programme so it had less chance of working.
I know you say you are running everything by them (which can be good) but - if they are not all in tune, not all singing from the same hymn sheet, it will still be confusing and may negate a lot of the behaviour programme ...sorry not sure if that makes sense. I need some coffee!
Wys
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13-05-2009, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pidge
I think so too, although is the difference between 28 (current) and 25 (proposed) that much?
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Location: March, Cambridgeshire.
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13-05-2009, 10:07 AM
What I would like to say is Ollie has had his moments too, I am not giving advice as again I think there is so much on here all of it good but you have to take one thing and work with it but I do want to share my experience with you.
Ollie has always been a timid nervous dog from day 1 of bringing him home while still with his Mum and litter Brothers and Sisters he was a confident outgoing pup. The man who use to deliver our food and had gundogs told me this sometimes happens when taken away from the litter they lose their confidence.
Ollie use to lay down a lot as a pup and if we went to move him on he would bite not hard but it would bruise, I was not going to give up on him like I did on Zanta so I had to hide my fear and persevere which I did we got there in the end. He now has a harness with a handle on the back like the search and rescue type this allows me to lift him and he cannot bite if he decides too but that is very rare now he did get me at the weekend I have a bruise but I went about it the wrong way and knew I had done as soon as it happened he knew he had done wrong too and we both moved on and all is fine again.
Ollies breed can be very stubborn all 10 stone of them (males). When he was younger he would leap at us and grab our arms we soon learnt to ignore it, it was dam hard with a huge playful pup but you have to be strong and let them see you are in control there were some days I would cry not in front of Ollie though I never let him see how he could get to me if I did that I knew I had lost and I wasn't doing that this time around.
He is now a fairly well adjusted almost 3 year old and we have lots of fun and cuddles but there are some things we as a Family know spook him or worry him ie: strangers in the house so we have learnt how to deal with it to keep him comfortable and visitors safe sometimes he has to be gated in the kitchen but thats not such a big deal for him or us. He doesn't like being disturbed when asleep so we give him space again not a big deal, we all know the boundaries and respect each others space. He is not good with some dogs or some people when out and about so we always err on the side of caution. You have to learn the signs it takes time but when you have it is so much easier to work with them and you don't feel you are going against them all the time.
We now know Ollie has some issues with his joints and is on a natural remedy which has made his life happier and ours we also know his Grandmother was very stubborn and no amount of shouting pushing or pulling would budge her, so we have learnt to cajole and as I said invest in the type of harness we can use so we have control and he has to do as he is told. I wouldn't be without him and am so glad I stuck at it and worked out what upset him and what didn't and took it from there and we now have a good mutual understanding of one another and respect for one another he knows by the tone of my voice when he has stepped out of line and backs down. Ollie was neutered at 6 months and I agree with BD I don't think this helped him
our previous male dog was neutered at 17 months and was confident I will never know if this would of helped Ollies confidence or not but no good keep going over it in my head it is done now and I have learnt to read him like a book.
His Parents are both confident dogs but there could be some throw back from a grandparent that is is in his genes and this is where his problems come from.
I have stopped blaming myself for all his faults I cannot change him but I can learn to respect his problems which I have and have a good loving relationship with him which I do.
I needed to post this for you so you know I have had this problem twice the first time I gave up the second time I haven't if I can do it you certainly can and with all the support you are getting you and Woody will look back on this and laugh one day I am sure of it. Just take one thing that works for you and Woody and stick with it and I promise you it will work, but you have to have faith in yourself.
Sorry for the long post I hope it has helped and you can take something from it to help you.
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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13-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
Thanks, this will help us all to understand the problems you are having...
Heres my take on it.
I think the basis of all his problems has become learnt pattern.. he is learning that if he creates he gets a reaction... by you foxing him with a different approach, you will 1) gain the results without a battle, 2) he will forget his actions, and learn to settle when you say.
Remember if he is not in the position to challenge you , you are 3/4 of the way to a new Woody.
i know a lot of my suggestions may sound a little over the top, but the purpose of them is to get results without confrontation... if you have to stand on your head singing Dixie.. to get it so be it... and believe me, once he forgets to challenge you , you can start to implement calmer rules... its all down to the fact , he knows that he can get the upper hand.. you are the one with the brains, find ways to get one over him. he wont know what hits him, he will have no idea why he was guarding that toy before hand
Originally Posted by random
Hi Pidge, before I start, I saw this in New Look last week and thought of you!
Ok now I know that has cheered you up I will say my bit, and please don't be offended because I don't mean to be. I haven't really read all about Woody's trouble in the past, please forgive me I hardly have time read too much here lately like I used to, so I don't really know the build up to this thread, or which behaviourists you are seeing/how long for/e.t.c.
I am not going to give you a whole bunch of advice either because I think you have enough to think about for the time being.
I will tell you however about my very own super menace dog, and i'm not trying to win the worst dog competition here but if she was like you have described Woody that would have been a good day!
A nightmare, NIGHTMARE! Most people here know, oh I did all the research into the breed for years, into her lines, she was my third dog, I had successfully trained Charlie (my springer/collie x) from an abusive situation, he wasn't even housetrained, I thought I was ready for anything, then along came the bombshell that is Maddy. My own vet said that if there is a form of Autism in dogs, Maddy most definitely has it! Weims like springers can be very anxious dogs, you have to pick them very carefully, I won't go into it as it's a long story but she got her issues from her mum. She was fine as young pup but I later realised all that time it was underlying and she always had her quirks but nothing too serious, little did I know she just needed a push to set her off the rails, she was attacked when she was 9 months old and that was it. I couldn't even persuade her to go out of the house for weeks and I did the worst thing possible, let her stay inside to 'get over it'. This (I now know) just made it worse, tenfold. It took me 2 crappy behaviourists (who told me nothing I didn't know already for £80 an hour!) to realise only I could sort this, I even thought about shipping her off to one of those doggy schools but I didn't have the heart. I put everything on hold for her, my business, my whole life.
It took me the best part of 2 years to get her to a stage where she could be reliable in public and just now, she is 4 in August, i'd say she is a regular dog who doesn't much like strange dogs and still doesn't really accept strangers in the house too well, but from what she was a couple of years ago this is an absolute Godsend and something easy to work on.
You will find that there are so many ways to go about this and you will find the ways that you feel are right and which work for you and Woody. You need patience by the absolute truckload and soon enough you will be looking on www.wigs4u.com because you will be tearing your own hair out, believe me, it is very hard, but he is very young and this is in your absolute advantage.
All the best. x
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd
Ha ha, this is sooo true!
I think many people don't realise how challenging Springers can be. Isla is very much the type of dog that will stop and think after each command and then decide if it's the right thing to do. Training her has been hard work and very frustrating at times, but I quite like how she tests me tbh. She pushes me every day, always trying to work out what she can or can't get away with, even though she knows her boundaries, and this is where it becomes soooo important to be consistent. Give her an inch and she'd take a mile!
Don't get me wrong, she's a fantastic dog to live with and has been the easiest pup we've ever had, but then I got her from a kennel that breeds them to be more laidback. I dread to think how much more work would've been involved if I hadn't got her from Canouan!
Keep at it Em, you'll get there in the end. This time next year you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.
Originally Posted by madmare
Hi pidge,
I am sorry you seem to be having these problems with dear little woody.
It seems to me you have always tried too hard to get it right and be a good mum. Nothing wrong in that but I think you worry about it which he picks up on and being very clever takes advantage.
I remember saying when he was smaller that I thought you gave him too much exercise for one so young. The reason behind me saying this was it stimulates them into wanting more and more as they grow, which makes life harder and harder for you. Its not all about joint problems in later life its about teaching them to rest and relax. I have had hyper dogs, my Shady is one but as a pup I would give minimal exercise (her reason is she is a large dog and I did worry about her joints) I would play a few mind games with her and then ignore her and just get on with things.
Her and Milo are the first dogs in 30 odd years that I had to crate as pups when I was out to stop them harming themselves by being destructive and eating something dangerous.
Milo has possesive behaviour but its not actually a problem, because I don't allow him anything he can be possesive over like a bone unless its an hour before food time. Then I can feed him and as he eats his food I remove the bone.
I never remove my dogs food when they are eating and never have done. None of my other dogs including Shady would bother if i did but milo would so i don't give him the opportunity to show aggression by even trying. its pointless and there is no reason for it. If I was hungray and eating a nice meal and someone kept sticking thier hand on my plate and removing it my goodness would I fly for them I would be so annoyed and some dogs feel that way too.
Sometimes I want to move Milo from where he is sitting on my bed or the sofa, he will growl if I try and push him off, so I never push him off. I just calmy lift the sofa cushion or the duvet cover so he has to get up and off and then I sit down and call him up for a cuddle. No aggression shown I have what i want and he is invited then to join me. Once I have invited him I can move him easily at any time because I was there first and he seems to accept that.
So you see although Milo could be absolutly awful that way he isn't because I don't give him the chance or any opportunity for confrontation.
The only other dog I ever had that showed any aggression was my first CKCS and the only time was as a pup she would growl and snap at you was if you tried to towel dry her if she got wet. So I stopped towel drying her as I think it was through fear. When she got older and more confident I tried again and she actually enjoyed it from that day on.
Had I persisted or made a big thing of it when she was a pup it could have escalated into a real problem.
What I am trying to show here is there is always a calm way to get your dog to do things without getting flustered or making an issue of it. Don't make an issue of it, they don't understand English, only your body language and your emotions. making an issue causes an issue.
Being cross or upset just makes them hyper. Think calmly and carefully before rushing in to move him or stop him doing something. There is always an alternative easy calm quiet way to get what you want without force.
My two love me to play with them and would keep me playing all day. But I will throw toys for them and after 5 mins or so I just say thats it now mummys got things to do, and they come on in and settle down. They didn't used to settle straight away but I would ignore all thier attempts to carry it on and if they then started to be naughty I would get a stuffed kong or some time out. So they learn't they were wasting thier time to keep trying to get me back playing.
If they needed more than a five minute game I would add onto that 5 mins training and then stop always telling them thats it now so they learn that I am not going to carry on and they must settle down.
I always instigate play and never play because they demand it. its my choice not thiers when I will do things and they are only too happy to join in when I start.
I will never play with my dogs in the evening when I want to sit down and they now naturally settle for the evening. I am tired and want some rest myself and they have to respect that and that comes by ignoring any silly behaviour but encouraging cuddles and relaxation in the evening together.
Good Luck I hope you manage to work round your problems together as I think you could both have a very happy enjoyable future together.
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Pidge, did the behaviourist give advice regarding the biting in various situations?
Wys
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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13-05-2009, 05:48 PM
I took Woody to the vets today so that we can start working on potential health issues and discuss his diet.
She checked his ears (an ongoing thing with him) and all was fine but then she checked his eyes with the light. Now I have been saying for months that I think there is something wrong with his eyes and unfortunately I think she now agrees. Woody felt very unhappy about it and growled at her. She muzzled him and then had a good look.
She wasn't able to see his retina. He has filmy looking eyes and I have noticed a small, circular disc on a few occasions.
We've been referred to an eye specialist in Oxfordshire as an urgent appointment tomorrow as she's pretty certain he has P.R.A. ;o(
I just can't believe it! Poor little chap. I'm being very strong though as we don't know for certain and there is every chance he will give him the all clear.
Can you all keep your fingers crossed?
Re the diet we are putting him on bland food (chicken and rice) for a few days with a dollop of pro biotic yoghurt. then moving him onto Arden Grange Sensitive Adult. If after a few weeks still no change we'll do stool and bloods. She is convinced though that changing his diet like this will make a huge difference.
She also said that he couldn't be further from being a candidate for re-homing and pts and that we should be proud of what we've achieved with him as he's a stunning example of a working springer in a pet home and that we just have to sort out this bits and bobs. Bless her!!
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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