exactly.. the elephants in the example are exhibiting a pscychological condition.. however i bet your dogs would clear it if asked - ie. they know that they can clear it but choose not to, rather than believe they are incapable/helpless...

Thank you, how do you rate them out of interest?

Does he ever incorparte "play" into the exercise or Affection do you know?

id actually like to edit my list to

1.Affection
2.Play
3.mental exercise
4.physical exercise
5.discipline

You cannot compare an elephant to a dog in their learning processes, elephants have to be"tamed"in order to get them to accept their change from being totally wild to being semi domesticated. Dogs are already domesticated & need to be educated not "tamed"

I wasn't making a comparison between dogs and elephants. I was just using that example of learned helplessness in elephants to show that many popular techniques used in dog training aren't really that different. Or at least, don't appear to be that different.

So whilst you could perhaps argue that some of Ceasar Millan's methods rely on learned helplessness so do many others.

Here's a common dog training method that I think uses a similar 'technique'. To stop a dog pulling on the lead simply stop every time the lead goes tight - or reverse direction. Eventually the dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him the result that he wants and he'll stop trying. Just like the elephants!!

I wasn't making a comparison between dogs and elephants. I was just using that example of learned helplessness in elephants to show that many popular techniques used in dog training aren't really that different. Or at least, don't appear to be that different.

So whilst you could perhaps argue that some of Ceasar Millan's methods rely on learned helplessness so do many others.

Here's a common dog training method that I think uses a similar 'technique'. To stop a dog pulling on the lead simply stop every time the lead goes tight - or reverse direction. Eventually the dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him the result that he wants and he'll stop trying. Just like the elephants!!

Now if I had one dog trained to walk to heel without pulling by giving it treats, and another by stopping or changing direction whenever it pulled would there be any difference in the end result? Is the treat trained dog walking to heel for different reasons than the 'stop or change direction' trained dog? And what about people that use both methods?

Accepting someone as boss is a variation on the same theme. Even amongst humans certain people have a presence - an air of authority and we're happy to accept orders from them without question. Others might have the same experience, tallent and knowlege but for some reason they don't have that air of authority. So we are more likely to challenge their authority. We're more likely to have run-ins with them.

So going back to the example of training the dog to walk on the lead without pulling.

- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by enticing it with treats.
- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by not letting it get the result that it wants when it does the wrong thing.
- Ceasar's approach might be to give off an air of authority that causes the dog to just do what he asks without the need to challenge him umpteen times before the penny drops.

None of the approaches are cruel in my view. They all end up in the same place. I would guess that the choice of what's best between the first two would depend a lot upon what makes your dog tick. But if you can pull it off ceasar's way then I'd have thought that's the happiest outcome for all concerned! You get to the point where you want to be without the need for umpteen trial runs!! I know when I'm around people that have an air of confidence and authority I feel more relaxed - simply because I don't feel the need to constantly assess the situation and make decisions for myself. I trust that they've got everything under control. And I will often follow their instructions without thinking simply because something in my subconscious doesn't register that I have an option to ignore them.

But if you can pull it off ceasar's way then I'd have thought that's the happiest outcome for all concerned!

Hi there

I have to say I am really disappointed at how some of the more experienced people on this site see - and rate CM. People that I would have thought would have known better and been able to see through the hype.

I am a moderator on another site and I had never heard of the guy until about a year ago when one of the members from the US mentioned this guy and asked if we'd seen him. Because I like to keep up to date with issues relating to dog behaviour I decided to watch the programme. All I can say is what I saw really distressed me - and also one of my friends who was with me at the time (and she is no dog behaviourist!).

I thought this forum was all about advocating kind, reward based behaviour and training. I didnt think it was about advocating - and supporting - the use of prong collars (whether they are supplied by the owner or not!), e-collars, contraptions that fit around a dog's neck so it can't move; kicking dogs; alpha rolls and basically bullying dogs into submission. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT CM USES ALL THESE METHODS WHICH ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT POSITIVE, REWARD BASED STRATEGIES. Anybody with a real knowledge of dogs and dog behaviour can recognise in an instant when a dog is distressed, stressed and fearful. That is exactly what I saw when I watched his "show". Because that is all that it is; a show that is dedicated to CM.

CM has no real methods of dealing with dogs; in fact, I am degree educated and have spent all my career working in communication, and I couldnt understand what exactly he was trying to say - or what he was trying to advocate to the owners!!! To me the man is a bully. If anybody came into my house and treated my dogs like that I would be asking him to leave - NO - forcing him to leave through the window!!!!!!

Now, before anybody tells me I am into all the clicker training crap and anthromorphisise (sp!) my dogs. Let me tell you categorically that I am not and I do not!!!

I have a variety of dogs - some I have reared from puppies, one that I have had since she was 9 months and came from the rescue and one who was so severely traumatised when I took him from a family that I spent a long time trying to "rehabilitate" him and none of the methods I used were anywhere near what CM would have advised me to do. I now have a dog that has great trust in humans, loves everybody and everything and everybody loves him. I must have done something right!!!

All my dogs have routine, plenty of relevant exercise (and by that I mean time to sniff, hunt, play and interact with other dogs!), they eat good, nutritious food and they are well loved - and they know it. They all sleep in my bedroom at night and lounge about on sofas during the day. I have not one dog that has a behaviour problem that I see as a "problem that can't be fixed if I put some work into fixing it - kindly!!! The problem is that most people are lazy and expect others to do it for them without really taking the time to find out what the underlying problem is. Fix that, and the problem is eliminated.

Anybody who needs to look at TV programmes to get guidance about dog behaviour or training IMO doesnt really know dogs. Having worked in the industry I know that they wouldnt show something that wasnt going to get the ratings hence the reason VS wears her dominatrix outfits; CM does all the showbiz stuff and Dog Borstal has all the music, hard man shots etc., to go along with it.

Why dont people just concentrate on achieving a bond with their dogs. Make yourself so interesting to the dog by playing, interacting, taking them for lively fun walks and - most importantly - before you try out anything you see on the TV - think how you would feel if somebody did that to you. Don't treat your dogs with disrespect and try to "dominate" them; they dont understand that. All any animal wants is somebody to try and understand them.

There is no quick fix for a behaviour problem with a dog. You will learn absolutely nothing about true dog behaviour by watching these types of programmes. What you will learn is how to do it all wrong and the only "being" that will be affected is your dog. Dogs are sentient animals, they love to be with us and be part of our world. Stop thinking about methods and theories and start concentrating on your relationship with your dog. Everything will then just fall into place.

Give your dog what it needs to survive; make its life happy; and most of all dont get bogged down with all the showbiz rubbish. Enjoy your dog. You never know you might just learn more than you are seeing on the TV.

Spettadog