Well done Ben, got to go to work now, but I'll have a dekko later. Thanks for that.

A big clap for the off leash class idea .... brilliant !! Ian Dunbar used to do this in his puppy training classes ... all pups were off lead.

A good post Ramble, although I disagree with your remarks about CC.

It would be nice if we could get away from the bullying theme ... both in its discussion, and in actuality. It would be nice to turn this thread back to its original discussion, started by Mish, and discuss whether CM is improving.

Unfortunately, we don't have Sky, so I am unable to watch his latest programmes, only those repeated on Freeview. So it would be good to hear from youse rich guys who can afford Sky and watch the more up to date episodes !

fanx

Have to admit, if I am asked I do warn people off - this is because I am seeing more and more owners in classes using his methods which is causing problems even in young pups eg pups snapping at reaching hands because they predict being pinned or rolled...and starting to mistrust. Early dog/owner relationships showing signs of a problem relationship and going down the pan....As a dog trainer, this really does worry me, so I definitely tell people to not take training from the tv.
What was it can I ask that gave results? I presume it's not any of the more extreme things he does, but the promotion of exercise, etc? (guessing here!).

Wys
x

I don't really know what you mean by extreme. I can't say I've seen anything that I consider extreme. Some of the things he does would be inappropriate for my dogs simply because my dogs are pretty well balanced and don't need rehabilitation.

We've always spent lots of time exercising and training our dogs. So no - it wasn't that that made the difference.

CM is always on about 'rules, boundaries and limitations', 'exercise, discipline THEN affection', projecting the right energy and being the pack leader. It was embracing this stuff and using some of his techniques. So for example, the 'tsk', using your body to claim space, when our boy got stroppy we'd stand over him and use our presence and 'energy' to overpower him. He'd bark at first and be quite defiant. But if we stood firm he'd get a bit uneasy then give up and settle down. I've heard some people describe this as 'shutting down'. Well, not in the case of my little dog. He was immediately calmer, happier and more relaxed. He knew his place and didn't have to worry about taking charge of everyone else.

Out little boy had got quite stroppy as a result of us avoiding doing things that caused him to growl or show aggressive body language. It build up to the point where it was difficult to get him out of rooms or off of chairs without him snapping. All the trainers we consulted said he wasn't an aggressive dog and that it was all show. But they advised us to avoid confrontation and things just got worse. We trained him to go to his basket etc or to give things up for treats. He did it fine when he wanted to. But when he wanted his own way he'd growl or lower his body.

It was the vet that brought us to our senses saying that the dog just HAD to be handled by them and that we simply couldn't pussyfoot around him. Reaching out to grab his collar or push him always provoked a (pretend) aggressive response. However, using CM's approach of just standing over him and claiming back space really worked a treat. No bad reaction from our dog. An initial bit of defiance and then he does as he's told. Now we use body language or energy rather than commands most of the time for this kind of thing.

Just my 2p worth on CM's mantra

Excercise
Yup important for dogs and humans - but mental and physical excercise -and suitible amounts for the breed and fitness levels. CM promotes excercise till the dog is totaly exhausted (which is just going to make it fitter and fitter and need more and more excercise - no good unless you want to be a marathon runner) and with no just being a doggy, either walking head up no sniffing or worse still running on a treadmill

Disciplin
Yes dogs need rules and guidelins - but much of CM's method just assumes dogs automaticaly know the rules and need told off for not following them, better to train your dog what is expected in a situation rather than tell them off when they get it wrong

Affection
Affection is rewarding to a dog, you are rewarding it, if you dont think about what you are rewarding it for then you could be training all sorts of behaviours you didnt mean to - affection is part of the training
'you are behaving in a way I really like - here is lots of fuss'



Also Scarter I think you missunderstood positive training or had some really bad trainers

Mia didnt like her collar being grabbed - first deal with the situation - put a house line on to make her more managable then teach her to like her coller being grabbed
Reward for getting your hand closer to the collar until it is a fun game where you can run about grab collar let go and all sorts

You only back off and then figure out how to adress the situation you dont back off and let them get their own way

You are one of the worst "antis" for being rude and abusive, simply because we "pros" follow CM. You have accused me of being violent to my dogs for no other reason than I support CM. That is not FAIR, as you are trying to suggest.

Quite honestly, your posts disgust me on the whole (on the CM subject). Like I always say to Ramble, the posts are there for all to see (though I believe some of your libellous ones towards me were deleted but I'm not sure). You have showed what you are and how you operate and I have no wish to further discuss anything with you. You remind me of a petulant child!

Ben, I think you base too much on your experience of two dogs and assume that all dogs are the same.

From what I've read you have a 'problem dog' in mia - she came to you with baggage. She had problems that you needed to solve.

My dogs came as well balanced pups. The little one was a resource guarder but that's normal for a dog. My dog doesn't mind in the least having his collar grabbed, being cuddled.....anything is fine with him. Unfortunately we inadvertently taught him to growl, use calming signals and even snap when he didn't get his own way. It's not about fear or not linking something - it's about getting his own way.

THAT I think is the big mistake that inexperienced dog owners make. It's also a mistake that trainers make because they often don't spend enough time with a dog and make assumptions about why it's doing a certain thing. People often claim that you can't do harm with positive training methods so less care is necessary when 'diagnosing' a problem. I disagree. You CAN do harm using these methods if you use them in the wrong circumstances.

When the trainers that I've worked with saw my dogs behaviour they all pretty much advised something along the lines of CM's approach. When I described the behaviour to them they recommended backing of and finding ways to make the dog do what I wanted it to do. THAT caused a little problem to escalate into something much more serious.

Any approach can do damage when used in the wrong circumstances. The trick is to see through forceful people that are hellbent on pushing THEIR way and to work hard to find what really does work for your dog. For many people CM's approach works very well. For others it will cause huge problems. It's foolish to try and tell people that they're wrong and that they don't know their own dogs (or their own preferences).

Wouldnt say it was "normal" Ive never had a dog that guarded anything, thats Dobes, Labs, Collie crosses, mongrels and Terriers.