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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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05-06-2009, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn 
Electricity is electricity in my opinion. they work because they cause discomfort & sometimes pain.
I get static shocks everyday, they dont hurt as such but make me jump & scream & im SCARED to touch my car to shut the door. I dont want my dogs learning in such a way when there are so many better ways to teach a dog.
electricity has no place in dog training/management
I agree neither buzzes nor more painful shocks have any place in dog training ... but in a life or death situation in a desert in S. California with a pitbull who had no fear of a rattlesnake, and was one day going to be killed by one or another type of venomous snake, IMO was worth him having to be buzzed a couple of times. Trouble may know the answer, but from memory Cesar never had the power of the collar turned up more than half way, so Daddy's violent reaction and scream would be more of shock than severe pain. He of course had absolutely no idea what was coming, so his reaction would be far worse than had the collar been put on us and we knew what was coming ! I quite take on board that even at half power the "pain" would be feelable, but it would no more scarey than if a wasp or a bee had suddenly stung Daddy on the neck.
If it were my dog, I would not hesitate to have such a device used on him in similar circumstances. Think of poor Will Smith's wife, who lost her beloved Rocco to rattlesnake bite in S California. Ask her what she wishes she had done.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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05-06-2009, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
I saw a trainer using one a few yrs ago on different dogs, for all manner of problems..
Like Lucky Star says they (trainer) will try different settings.. it will also depend on the fixation of said dogs, as to how high the stumulus needs to be .
A dog that is has a high prey drive, may need to be zapped on a high t level to interrupt their fixation ... believe me, I have seem dogs jump in pain , when the e.collar is used on them, also seen them so fixed on their prey , that they will be immune to the stimulus...
Some may only need a very low setting or will only need to have the vibration pressed.
The trouble with these collars when used incorrectly,can cause harm and injury to the dog, and it is no good saying....well they should only be in the hands of professionals... because they are freely available on the open market for any one who is inclined to use them.
I have also seen dogs with neck burns from the over use of these collars..
They will as with most things be abused, and to me, that is enough of a reason to ban them.
What goes on in the US is irrelevant to justifying there use here.
We dont have rattlesnakes, or highly venomous indigenous shakes... the only venomous snake we have is the Adder, and if treated is not life threatening..
They also only populate a very small percentage of the country, and most dogs will not come into contact with one in his lifetime,
The thread was tittled=
Can there ever be justification for the use of e.collars...
But it seems to have turned into justification on using them to save your dogs life from a rattle snake bite
And as the majority of the members here on Dogsey will never encouter one, or need to use such a tool to protect ones dog from one... then the argument is lost/
I know some will feel the use of these tools can work with sheep chasing, but for me, if you have a dog who is inclined to chase sheep, keep it on a lead
And unless you live on the land and have working sheep dogs, EVERYONE should be obeying the Country Code when walking anywhere near livestock.
Keep dogs on leads round livestock and wild life in breeding season!!!!!!!!
there no point having your dog wearing a e.collar, of lead walking through some farmers field... YOU many know he is not going to chase said livestock, the farmer does not... and will be within his rights to shoot your dog.
Not much concellation to you , knowing he was wearing an e.collar
Your other point about livestock - no, I definitely would not use an e-collar on Tai to stop him chasing livestock. I have already done this using calm assertive energy. However, he always go on the lead around livestock ... always. As you say, it is just not worth the risk. Once he has made the "break", like most dogs, he goes deaf, and again as you say, even the most violent setting on the e-collar would not deter him. I know my dog. Hence the reason he is ALWAYS on the lead around livestock.
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Location: Mo usa
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 42
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05-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn
At the end of the day you can always choose where you want to live.
Id not live on a main road because of the cats & possiblity that we could make a mistake & the dogs could get out worse case senario. Hence i would never live on a road,
Nor would i live anywhere with rattlesnakes, i wouldnt walk my dogs any where near alligators or in a desert or on a muddy beach. id not live on a cliff edge, under a volcano or any where that had lots of earth quakes or other natural disasters.I choose safe walks where the dangers are measured. My dogs are trained to recall , instant down & leave command. My dogs are my responsibilty & its my responsibity not to put them in danger . On walks i look out for changing circumstances & react accordling, if this means slipping their leads on for two secs or 15 mins then i will do, because i have a recall of course its easy because i can get my dogs back!!!!
of course we could all just not have any pets and send em all to england where apparently they can stay safe on a lead
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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05-06-2009, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by weim1
And both of you seem to be in agreement with Cesar's use of an e-collar to deal with the danger.
Drastic measures to hopefully prevent the death of a beloved pet ... seems reasonable to me
That says it all Weim. I am sure Will Smith's wife would agree ! I don't think a lot of people realise how painful the death is following a snake bite, apart from the horror of the death itself. I am so sorry about your poor dog
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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05-06-2009, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by weim1
my dog died in his own backyard in the middle of the city,you can never tell where wild animals will be and who can afford to move to another country,and is there a country with no bees snakes or other dangers to your pets,
of course we could all just not have any pets and send em all to england where apparently they can stay safe on a lead
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Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
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05-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I agree with everything you say Jackbox, except for the bit we are talking about Daddy in the States ! Whether CM was justified in using an e-collar on Daddy to turn him off wanting to kill snakes !
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Not about Daddy and CM. if you wanted the topic to be soley CM and Daddy, you should have made it clear in the tittle
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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05-06-2009, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I personally find the "ssh" noise very effective on Tai. I use it when he is starting to pull forward to much on the lead. I use the sharper "tsst", which is more like the hiss of a snake, when he is being naughtier than just pulling on his lead ! Next level up from that is an "oi" !
Thanks for your kind comments.
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Originally Posted by Jackbox
I saw a trainer using one a few yrs ago on different dogs, for all manner of problems..
Like Lucky Star says they (trainer) will try different settings.. it will also depend on the fixation of said dogs, as to how high the stumulus needs to be .
A dog that is has a high prey drive, may need to be zapped on a high t level to interrupt their fixation ... believe me, I have seem dogs jump in pain , when the e.collar is used on them, also seen them so fixed on their prey , that they will be immune to the stimulus...
Some may only need a very low setting or will only need to have the vibration pressed.
The trouble with these collars when used incorrectly,can cause harm and injury to the dog, and it is no good saying....well they should only be in the hands of professionals... because they are freely available on the open market for any one who is inclined to use them.
I have also seen dogs with neck burns from the over use of these collars..
They will as with most things be abused, and to me, that is enough of a reason to ban them.
) and I do wonder if it had to be a high setting for a dog to not ignore it, if it would just antagonise some of them? The second bit in bold - I agree.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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05-06-2009, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
No, the thread was about e.collars and justifacation on there use.
Not about Daddy and CM. if you wanted the topic to be soley CM and Daddy, you should have made it clear in the tittle
"Can there ever be any justification for the use of e-collars in any country where venomous snakes cause many dog deaths" Bit long-winded, innit !!
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,065
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05-06-2009, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
That says it all Weim. I am sure Will Smith's wife would agree ! I don't think a lot of people realise how painful the death is following a snake bite, apart from the horror of the death itself. I am so sorry about your poor dog
What we are disagreeing on is the methods used by trainers to teach them to avoid these things.
Becasue of this episiode with CM and 'Daddy' you saam to assume that an e-collar is the ONLY way to train a dog to stay away from snakes.
There are many kind and positive methods used on dogs to leave them to leave things alone. E collars are NOT the only way to go forwards.
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