I was going to say - where was the long line in all this - the hours of training and frustration and losing it but then focusing again.

I have had Louie since he was 8 weeks old - granted no abuse has being submitted to him, but I am still going through gruelling training sessions, to stop him pulling. His recall is 85% generally, unless there is a field of birds - but he is from working stock so I have to accept the fact he will always want to chase birds - I keep him on lead or if the field is empty of livestock - I let him chase them - it's exercise and mental stimulation for him. As soon as the fields are full of livestock he will be kept on lead. Simple. I have started recalling with a whistle - he is deaf when it comes to birds but he is making progress - but I have only been working on this for a few weeks now - I don't expect miracles and if you truly wanted a challenge then IMO using an E-collar after 6 months of changing trainers and methods - thats just cheating. Your not allowing any time for progress. Well your not anymore - you've "made it". So therefore you wanted a challenge but couldn't handle it.

Like Tupac says if you can't suit your life around the breed you want then you have to keep dreaming - I would happily have a sibe, mal, Zeff or Tupac in a heartbeat but I know for sure I would never be able to keep them how they should be kept.
I love dogs that can be offlead, Sadie is part collie - I can't have her off near livestock (except horses) - one because it's illegal.
Benjie is not good with other dogs - he is leashed as soon as there is another dog around. I just have to live with that.
Louie - as mentioned before is a puppy and from working stock - meaning I have to work extra hard with him.
My next dog is going to be a greyhound - now I have seen some that have got recall - but I'm probably going to have to live with the fact that I will probably have to keep it leashed at all times due to where we live - serious duck and small animal country..

I wouldn't have let any dog dog off, that I knew ran off in certain areas..why would you even do that - you're not training recall there, you're just reinforcing "Run away" ..

E-collars are ridiculous - they may have some successes, but cause more damage than harm.

The only thing you can rely on with any dog - is the hard work you put into your training..pressing a button is not training or hard work - it's lazy therefore defeating the purpose of a dog with a challenge..for god sake get a fish.

That is an excellent question---I await the detailed answer with interest.

rune

Just a couple points.

In this thread you said:
But just last week in another thread, you said:
and:

So what aggression issues between the dogs now meant you could justify the use of the ecollar, and do you truly believe that its a "cure all?"

You also said this:
Isnt that a DIRECT contradiction of what an ecollar does to a dog?

You even said he was coming on a treat, taking things slowly, and just 3 weeks ago, just cant understand it.

From reading this thread, the biggest question that comes to my mind is WHY would keeping him on-leash be cruel? I can't accept that any dog given adequate mental stimulation and exercise would really care whether they had a leash attached to them or not. Fun is fun, right? There's nothing that a dog can't do either on a long line or in an enclosed area that he can do in a wide open space EXCEPT for run for the hills, or the sheep!!

I do get the impression that you feel like him being offleash will increase his quality of life by giving him 'freedom'- but dogs aren't free, that's a fact. Dogs eat when we want them to, sleep when we want them to, go where we want them to, sit and play and mate when we want them to... The only truly free dog is an ownerless dog. A dog who recalls out of avoidance of an unpleasant stimulus is not free. You've been using this method less than a week... As others have said, 6 months is nothing in terms of training... A few days is even less. It's still FAR too early to say that the e-collar worked. You have a smart boy there, and I've no doubt that one day he'll figure out that the shocks aren't coming any more so he can do as he pleases- or even that if he runs AWAY from you fast enough, the collar will become useless. Then you are stuck with a dog who can never be left offlead, because he takes to the hills the second the lead is unclipped to run away from the invisible demons who zap him. The demons who only seem to hang out near his Mum and Dad? Hmmm...

So what I'm getting at is this: Conditioning him with shocks isn't going to make him think that coming back to you is a great thing- ONLY positive training will do that. You need him to come back because he wants to, because once the pain avoidance that fuels his current recall is gone, so is he- but he will always love his people. Sure, it'd be nice if they all came running when we called but when you take on a breed known to have poor recall, you take them on with that knowledge in full.

I do hope that you'll reconsider using the e-collar on him. I am not one to disregard any method of training on emotions or anyone else's opinions- if my dog had a problem that I thought could be solved by an e-collar and nothing else, then I would put my own feelings aside and do what I thought was in my dog's best interests. From what you have said, I cannot see how this can be the case. I've absolutely no doubt that you love him to pieces and would only ever take these measures for his benefit, but please, for Ben's sake, take what we're saying on board.

The whole Ben saga has been extraordinary. I have learned more over the last 6 months than I have learned in a lifetime of having dogs virtually.

When we first got Ben, back in June or whenever it was, he snivelled and quivered like a jelly and Tai mentally dominated him. He attacked him several times, but never hurt him, never drew blood. After a few times, Ben started to fight back, and Tai got bitten a couple of times, quite badly really. Then obviously Tai had decided hed had enough, and Ben got bitten. This seemed to be a bit of a watershed, and they became the best of friends, with Ben stopping the snivelling.

Then we had one or two incidents with Ben attacking other dogs for no reason ... we discovered that the cause of this seemingly inexplicable aggression was Gucci, the chihuahua, whom Ben was defending. Once Mike stopped exercising little man and made his owner do her duty, all was peace and Ben stopped attacking other dogs. Then this running off started, not running away, but running off.

Then, as they say, the rest is history. We have had nearly a week now of Ben wearing the collar (except on 1 occasion), but OH never having to press any button, not even the vibrate button. He lets OH put the collar on before each walk, and take it off after each walk. As I type, OH tells me he is lying upside down on our bed, legs wide apart, with a goofy grin on his face showing his teeth off in a dreadfully traumatised way - the poor dog

I've had a long day, not been back from work long, and now going to bed. I will try and read all posts tomorrow.

I was on my way to bed, but couldn't resist having a quick peek before I did so.

I am damned if I do, damned if I don't. Ben, a wolf cross, a northern breed, a mix, a mongrel, whatever you want to call him, is not the type of dog who will EVER have a perfect recall. The only time he has had a truly PERFECT recall is the 2 times and the ONLY 2 times when OH zapped him with the collar. On both occasions he came straight back to Mike. Ever since then, during which time he has NEVER been zapped or vibrated with the pager, he comes back when you call and whistle him, but hardly in a perfect recall. He comes running usually, and on just one occasion, at the gallop and skidded into me!! That was his best recall, but otherwise, he usually runs right past you, stops, turns and comes to you, or he runs in a big circle back to you, rather than coming direct. I don't care, I have said time and time again, I DO NOT WANT AN AUTOMATON, I want my naughty, unruly, full of character wolfie boy who comes back when he is called, in his own time to a certain extent, and his own inimitable way. Which is what he does now, after just 2 split second but no doubt painful nips with the electric collar.

I just cannot see how this can be cruel. We were at our wits end. And yes, I DO think it cruel in the extreme to condemn a beautiful dog like Ben to a life on the lead, I just will not do that - I would do anything to avoid that. Unfortunately we do not have a video camera, but I would love to film him running free through the woods so you can see what I mean.

Others may disagree but I'd say you haven't learned a thing if you've now brought in an e-collar; you've given up on him far too quickly IMHO.

Clearly not the latter..cos thats what I do..and I'm a cruel owner..

its funny though cos I researched the breed I have and KNEW it was an issue and decided I could live with it..not electrocute them to change it!..

Instead you cause him pain/uncomy feelings - because you was at your wits end
we all get frustrated with our dogs and I spose thats what makes it all worth while when you have a break through, knowing you have worked hard to get over problems. You used the easy option regardless, because it suited you better!

I, too, feel sad and disappointed by your attitude. If Ben is anything like Loki, you will have to continue this for ever. After a couple of zaps, Loki would very quickly stick his two paws up at you and continue to do what he wishes to do. It would take a damn site more than two and very high intensity (if, indeed, hurting him would have your desired effect - and with Loki, I very much doubt that it would) and I would never do that to him.