all i read in the above post was...blah blah blah blah blah!

another issue to bring up; when using positive methods, i, and im sure many others, realise that at times, the dog gets bored/tired/stressed with the situation, so i give one more easy command and end the session. if using negative reinforcement, firstly, how can you tell when the dog is tired/stresssed/bored and had enough? and if you DO realise this, how does it work with their learning; eg: teaching recall with ecollar, dog zapped, then "reeled" in by long line, sent out again, and process is repeated BUT what about when the dog says, hey you know what? ive had enough and dont want to play this "game" anymore, can you then just stop the training, cos surely that is teaching the dog to ignore the zap?! which isnt what you want?
i would assume the dogs signals are ignored, cos lets face it, from starts to finish with this kind of training the dog is stressed, so you are actually teaching the dog; dont bother trying to communicate with me, it doesnt work, i dont listen!
so how do you KNOW when the dog has had enough, do you listen to it? do you let them take a break? can you teach the owners the signs stress and when to STOP training?

Adam since this is your thread - just wondering if you have any comments to make regarding the training discussion/comments thats taken place here (over the last page and this one) regarding positive methods etc?

good question(s) Dawes Paws

Dobermann; lol glad it made sense, so hard to explain exactly what youre trying to say at times!

Sorry but imo frustration is not an enjoyable emotion, the negative reinforcement is the negative added element of the frustration, reinforcing the potential extinction burst.

The enjoyment comes, not from the frustration but from the relief from frustration.

Relief from anxiety is a powerful reinforcer for fear aggressive dogs who believe they succeed in intimidating away the scarey thing.

Training definitions are not perfect and clear cut as there can be considerable overlaps, such as whether this is negative punishment i.e. the treat being withheld, but by a "punishment" definition that should only result in suppressing behaviour, not in increasing a behaviour, as occurs with an extinction burst,

Looking at negative reinforcement it fulfills the requirement: an aversive (emotion) added to reinforce/strength another behaviour, with relief from the negative emotion being part of the reward for offering the desired behaviour.

I was answering the quoted point that was made saying that positive training and punishment are oxymorons, not some other point, posted somewhere else.

This inevitably brings in discussing the point made as to whether punishment, or negative reinforcement, occurs with positive training, or whether that is indeed an oxymoron, not the specific respective merits of positive training and electric collars.

Positive training suffers credibility problems in some quarters from it sometimes being argued black is white, rather that accepting there does often have to be some negative consequences for training to be meaningful in terms of cause and effect, even that of withholding a reward.

Of course even with positive training how punishing it may be can depend greatly on the skill and knowledge of the person doing that training.

Most pet owners are not experts in its use which isn't to say that positive methods are not obviously preferable, when possible but there can be problems with it, as with any other method.

*Shrug* You can try and get personal about the way I choose to do things with Cain but it won't change a thing. If you are truely changing the dogs emotions then why do you need to keep using the collar to reenforce the behaviour? If you'd truely improved the emotional state them you could throw the collar in the bin. I saw an ecollar in use for the first time a few weeks ago and it made me even more sure that it's not going to work. Firstly, the dog trainers dogs all wore their collars despite owning them for years, if they are so well trainer then why still use the collars? Secondly I witnessed it used on a fear aggressive dog who went fom running around to shaking at it's owners legs with it's tail between it's legs. Yes, it was no longer aggressing but there is no way that he was in a better emotional state.

MoonsMum, Ive seen one used on a dog too and its behaviour was really odd but obviously the dog just didnt really know what exactly was acceptable, what wasnt, what it should do or where it should go - poor thing was one mixed up dog

Just my thought when reading this as a 'non-professional'


I dont think anyone thinks that positive reinforcement means there will never be a negative in there for the dog, ever. However we (or at least I) dont agree with AP that to withold a treat is 'punishment' especially when compared to other methods. There is always a way for it to end in a positive for the dog hence the 'release' of that pressure/negative/whatever just take a step back, reward and end.

Frustration dosn't necessarily mean harm. When frustration cant be put to a good use is when its harmful - I.e. when the frustration is 'suppressed' with no-where to go...and no positive for the dog in there.

I think the problem with most first time dog owners and positive reinforcment is that they can be led to believe that the dog should just come to them over that dog since they have done what people said and given them a gravy bone in the past - or that a dog should come for food, when the dog isnt interested in food, so they havent actually found what the dogs motivator is in the first place just that they are training in a kinder way....

personally, I like to use a sound 'a-a' when I dont give a treat so they realise that actually that isnt what she wants, rather than leaving the dog wandering around in the dark so to speak...

If I want a cream cake whilst on a diet and see them in every other shop window and can't have one, thats not punishment, punishment is something I have to do that I really dont like or being physically reprimanded.

Whoopsy!!!!!

Hmmmm interesting that Adam has only answered questions by people that are not against e collars


Jann x