|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
|
24-01-2011, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
A ban won't change much imo.
You can buy collars from abroad and they usually ship marked training collar or whatever, no mention of e.
Most modern e collars are quite small, put them on a medium coated dog and the reciever disappears. If you keep the remote in your pocket people wouldn't know a thing!
They hide it under a thick leather collar (even on smooth haired types) and keep the remote out of sight, no one knows!
Wys
x
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
|
24-01-2011, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley
The guy who has just been reported as having numerous sales of a training DVD???
Might be in relation to the well known franchise or something, perhaps that is where she was trained. I seem to recall some sort of falling out or something, but I could be thinking of someone else entirely.
Wys
x
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
|
24-01-2011, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
Wys, although I know what your view is on collars (you've consistently spoken out against them, and in favour of a U.K. wide ban), I'm not sure I know what you're reasoning is behind this view (e.g. I don't think you've ever claimed they cause burns, or that using one is equivalent to plugging an animal into the mains supply, etc).
Whilst I find it wholly acceptable/right that your individual opinion is against e-collars, what I don't find acceptable, is that you wish to impose your view on others (who may not agree) without backing it up with good evidence.
which I'm not doing. People can take or leave my posts as they wish . People can also put me on Ignore I presume Some might say it's using a high level.
Some might say it's use of negative reinforcment (this means the dog experiences punishment first, then may learn to escape/avoid the continually pressed down button or tap, if the trainer can show the dog what is wanted...).Ive seen videos of dogs struggling to find out what is required, all the time button pressed down so they are experiencing some degree of pain or "discomfort", that sugary word.
Some might say it's even using the shock collar for basic training -it's not needed for this, yet this is exactly how it is being promoted!
Some might say it's using it on a puppy for housetraining or on a horse who is cribbing (yet who may have an ulcer).
Some might say that it's when US gundog trainers want their dog to know they can hurt it by using the shock collar. This is how some of them use it.
Some may say it's when it is used to train dogs for sport, even agility and htm.
Some may say it's when a deaf dog is not diagnosed as deaf and is shocked for disobedience.
Some might say it's when a dog dies as a result of shock collar use (dog put to sleep due to becoming aggressive due to shock collar use).
Etc.....
I think very few people, even professional trainers, are able to get their timing right with something like a shock collar.
Just one of the reasons why I feel strongly that they should not be used by anyone.
Wys
x
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
25-01-2011, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley
A very pertinent question that even e-collar trainers and users can't agree on
For me its easy
Use of a e collar is abuse imo
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
25-01-2011, 09:23 AM
Can you define misuse with a shock collar?
Originally Posted by Brierley
A very pertinent question that even e-collar trainers and users can't agree on
.
I have read about dogs panicking and messing themselves,shaking uncontrollably and biting . What a way to train dogs
|
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
25-01-2011, 09:44 AM
Is the application of a shock stressful to the dog?
There is little doubt that high intensity electrical stimulation causes a physiological stress response in dogs (Schalke, 2005). Application of initial high intensity shocks has also been found to elicit behavioural responses associated with fear and distress in the dog, including yelping, struggling, biting, freezing, withdrawal, hiding, running to the owner, cowering, trembling, defecation and urination (Tortora, 1982a). ).
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713013325&m ode=prd
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713013325&m ode=prd
|
|
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
|
25-01-2011, 10:46 AM
More on the pain and distress caused by e collar use ...
Matthijs B.H. Schilder a,b,∗, Joanne A.M. van der Borg a
a Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands
4.5. Conclusions and recommendationsWe concluded that shocks received during training are not only unpleasant but also painful and frightening. Furthermore, we found that shocked dogs are more stressful on the training grounds than controls, but also in a park. This implies, that whenever the handler is around, the dog seems to expect an aversive event to occur. A second unwanted association might be that the dogs have learned to associate a specific command with getting a shock.
Apart from the acute pain and fear, these expectations may influence the dog’s well being in the long term in a negative way. To counter misuse of the shock collar, it is proposed to ban its use for “sports”, but save it for therapeutic applications, such as for suppressing hunting and killing sheep. The effects we found occurred in spite of the fact that control dogs also underwent fairly harsh training regimes.Trainers and handlers should study learning theory far better and review the structure of the training in order to teach the let go command in an earlier phase and to reduce the number of mistakes. They should incorporate more rewards during exercises. Also, less temperamental and less forceful dogs should be bred. This also would decrease the chance that dogs make mistakes for which they could receive punishment.
We have all seen the video of Adam's little dog and judging by his body language he is undoubtedly fearful when Adam is around and clearly trying desperately to avoid punishment (and in one video contact with Adam) , this behaviour is in line with the findings of the study.
4.2. Is being shocked painful or just annoying?
Table 3, depicting immediate responses of dogs to shocks, shows a number of behaviours, that in the literature are connected to pain, fear and/or submission. Lowering of the components that make up the posture of the dog (ear and tail position and position of head and body), are related to submission and fear (Fox, 1974; van Hooff and Wensing,1987; Beerda et al., 1997, 1999, 2000) and harsh training (Schwizgebel, 1982). Beerda et al.have shown, that, even in the absence of a person or dog, dogs lower their posture when confronted with an unexpected aversive stimulus. This shows that lowering of the posture is not an expression of submission per se, but certainly is connected to fear. They also have shown, that certain behaviours (e.g. lifting a front paw, tongue flicking, licking lips and vocalisations) are connected to either chronic or acute stress.
Vocalisations are also indicative of pain (hellyer, 1999; Noonan et al., 1996; Conzemius et al., 1997), especially the higher frequency squeals, yelps and barks. Biting attempts can be interpreted as pain-induced aggression (Light et al., 1993; Ulrich, 1966; Polski, 1998).A characteristic, swift head movement sidewards and downwards often follows a shock as does a swift avoidance action. Both these reactions also indicate that reception of a shock is unpleasant. All in all these responses show that shocks elicit fear and pain responses. This means that shocks are not just a nuisance, but are really painful. In spite of the enormously high arousal of the dogs in this type of training, that very likely implies an increase of analgesia, receiving a shock may sometimes be perceived as a traumatic event by a dog.
One of our study dogs still behaved as though it received shocks during protection work although the last shock was delivered 1.5 years before!
One of our study dogs still behaved as though it received shocks during protection work although the last shock was delivered 1.5 years before!
Although shocks may be painful, this does not imply that there is physical damage. A recent report on possible damage by the use of shock collars provides no evidence for physical damage and states that this is even unlikely
http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf
http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf
In spite of its own findings in relation to the evident fear, pain and distress caused by the use of e collars the study still favoured their retention for therapeutic use in certain circumstances. One would have though in view of the findings the recommendation from any humane person would be a total ban on these devices.
|
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
|
25-01-2011, 11:51 AM
This may seem a fairly random view but I can`t read these posts now as they are making me feel ill. Discussing how tto decide much pain an animal can tolerate is simply vile.
