I have actually rejoined this forum as I popped on to have a nosey and saw this thread and couldn't stay quiet. I may not be around long as a result and this may even be deleted, but I had to say it.

I currently have 2 dogs. One has been trained, from day one, with a clicker, with praise and with rewards. He is responsive, intelligent and a thinker. This of course, has caused problems, as he 'thinks' and 'problem solves', he can open stair gates with his nose and paw and is now able to open kitchen cupboards and doors, just to get to the biscuit stash on the other side. HIs current favourite thing to do however, is to very carefully, whilst walking,grab the zip on my coat pocket and pull it down, thus accessing the biscuit/treat stash....he is a big dog (35kg) so that's not exactly easy for him to do. He wants to think and he wants to learn. He is eager and enthusiastic.

My other dog is an ex working dog. When she came to us she would NOT think. She had had that 'trained' out of her (they are the same breed). She was not willing to put herself out there and would follow a command (she only had the basics...sit and down) and that was it. The clicker did not work with her initially as she would NOT, under any circumstances, problem solve or think things through, she would only do exactly as she was told, which actually has made her learning exceptionally difficult. She has, undoubtedly, been 'punished' in some way for doing the wrong thing and that has been the method used to train her in her first five years...the result is a dog that doesn't think. It has taken us 18months for her to be willing to be carrying something in her mouth when she is anywhere near us.

My point is....using positive methods one of my dogs is a thinker and problem solver and as happy as a happy thing can be. My other dog, same breed, has been trained using other methods and as a result had shut down and would not think, making her exceptionally difficult to train (but where there is a will and a pack of cheese, there is a way, I have all the time in the world for her). Using an ecollar is a punishment, it hurts (otherwise it wouldn't work, let's not quibble over that one) and thus the dog will stop thinking and doing what it thinks is right...making it actually harder to train in the long run.

Personally I want my dog to be a happy dog, not a shut down, scared animal.

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Behaviour modification using desensitisation and counter conditioning is all that is required in the vast majority of cases, for those dogs who really want to kill sheep NO electric collar is sufficient, but I doubt if you have actually encountered any such dogs, there are, thank goodness, extremely rare.

For those dogs allegedly "cured" by the use of the e collar, 99% of dogs do not need this (they just need time and patience and actual "training") and for the rest all they have LEARNED is that if they chase sheep, they get punished, it does NOT reduce the desire for this small minority and means that if they do NOT wear the collars at all times, and get regularly punished (which also generally means escalation ie adding another collar etc) they are not TRAINED not to kill sheep!

Environmental management is the best method of "training" ie keep dog on lead or home it where it will not encounter them!

The reason that two collars were/are used is because some smart dogs can avoid being shocked by flaxing their neck muscles away from the contact points.

In practice (from direct and indirect observation) it is because dogs have been taken "over the edge" and spend most of their time in panic and confusion.

But as I said before, the longer he is occupied on the pc, the less time can be spent in experimenting on dogs and their hapless owners.

This has me really intrigued. Two collars - one dog????

Goodness, one is one too many, but two?

What were you hoping to achieve Adam??

What if chasing sheep is the most rewarding thing the dog has ever done, as in an ex sheepdog now retired? AS one of mine is?

Sadly, not always possible in my experience, not with every single dog.

I will give money to anyone who can desensitise my girl. from sheep using any method that is not aversive based. I Haven't used an aversive or ecollar on her and nor will I ever, as I don't need her to be desensitised to sheep, as I can keep her on a lead and away from sheep. But If someone could do it, Id pay top money, just to see it.

I have desensitized many dogs from sheep and other things using positive reward based training and it is possible with many many dogs. Most dogs even. But, I believe, not ALL dogs. Am willing to be happy to be proved wrong.

I have my own sheep that can be used and any dog training facility you need in terms of set up. Will travel to you if you have sheep and that is easier?

Talk about 'overkill'

It would seem Adam is uncharacteristically shy about discussing it because he has avoided my questions on the subject .

I have acquaintances in many places one of them spotted Adam talking about using 2 collars to 'increase the stim' . Do tell me if I have got this wrong Adam , a Boxer wasn't it and a Malamute .

Adam will you be progressing to 3 collars soon? You never know use enough power and you may 'stim' a dog into permanent immobility then we will all get to hear about it

I'm a little confused, if you dog is a retired sheepdog can't you use the same commands that the handler used while she was working to have her under control?

The person who calls himself Adam on here (not his real name) pretends to be a trainer, and also pretends to have a degree in Animal Science. He is a mouthpiece for a commercial enterprise that makes money from inflicting pain on the defenceless.
We have CRB checks etc for people working with vulnerable humans. What a shame the same checks aren`t there for the animals.