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Gnasher
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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13-06-2010, 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I`m glad Gnasher`s dog is now so obedient. If I remember rightly she also uses aversives so it`s not exactly positive training, is it? Or have you changed training methods, Gnasher?
I don`t quite understand the `bribery` thing. This smacks of negotiation and agendas. Dogs really aren`t that complicated.
You train so action A has positive consequences. Then you put a cue to it.
Cue A = Action A provided you`ve done it often enough.
You then re-enforce the link as often as necessary to combat the times when Action A doesn`t produce a reward and therefore weakens the link. Simples!
Bribery is a human word. That`s why it confuses the issue.
I use treats, play and praise to re-enforce my training.
The constant use of treats though means they become a bribe. Sorry if you think it is an anthropomorphic term, but it is a simple word that is easy to understand. I am not talking here about the odd biscuit, I am talking about several dogs that I see at dog shows who walk round the ring glued to their owners' sides, looking adoringly upwards whilst the owner shoves biscuits into their gobs. It must be at the rate of at least 1 biscuit per minute, and this to my mind is excessive. I have never ever trained a dog personally using treats, and never will, but have no objection to their use by others, it is just my own personal preference not to.
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Gnasher
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13-06-2010, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Interesting views on the use of treats in training & whether this is bribery or a reward.

I use food treats in training (but then I have labs so what else!!. But I only use food treats in the initial stages of training something new. Once the behaviour has been learned, is ingrained, automatic & paired with a verbal or visual cue, then the food treats are phased out. I just reward with "good dog" & a smile or a pat which will have also been paired with the treat to teach the relevance of the verbal praise. But every so often, e.g. for a particularly good recall away from something very rewarding, or a quick "sit" when another dog is kicking off nearby, then I'll reward with a food treat. I always take treats with me on walks & sometimes randomly ask for various behaviours which I may reward with food treats, or sometimes a tummy rub, or throwing a ball, or a game of tug. Personally I think this keeps a dog interested in the owner ~ "you never know what she's going to produce, so it's worth paying attention".

As most dogs like tasty food rewards I find this makes training so much easier & quicker ~ the dog is far more likely to pay attention & try to perform the behaviour that will get the reward. But I do recognise that using food treats wrongly can result in some dogs trying to mug the owners for treats, or they only behave when the owner has food in the hand. This is nothing to do with the use of food treats overall, but is more to do with the fact that the owner doesn't understand the basic principles of learning theory, so is using food treats inappropriately.

Using solely verbal praise or petting is fine, but you've got to make sure that the dog really perceives this as a reward, hence the verbal praise must initially be taught, i.e. "good dog" means "yes, you did it right" & that the dog really wants to please the owner. Dogs that don't give two hoots about pleasing an owner aren't going to perceive "good dog" as anything rewarding ~ so it comes back to what do you pair the verbal praise with initially so the dog realises that verbal praise is exactly that?!

I also don't like seeing what I call "tick tock" dogs, i.e. they look like they are being operated by some remote control device that glues them to the owner's side at times & in situations that it is not normal to behave like that. It does suggest that the dog has been taught using punishment based methods & is too scrared to do what it really wants to do for fear of the owner's reaction. I like my dogs to try to solve problems for themselves, I like them to use their intelligence, I like them to behave as a normal dog when out & about, so they can meet other dogs, stop & sniff when they want to, chase a rabbit when they want to, rummage through the undergrowth, splash through a muddy puddle etc etc. But if I need them to walk closely by my side for a particular reason, I know that they will do so because I have taught them to do this & they know they will be rewarded so it is worth their while. But I haven't found that just because I've used food treats during training that my dogs don't leave my side & don't behave like normal dogs. Nor have I seen this in any of the dogs at the training classes I help with that also advocate the use of food treats.
Good post Wilbar!

Interesting point that you make about dogs who aren't interested in pleasing their owners. Hal was exactly like that, but he also wasn't interested in food either, so we had a double whammy there!! He loved pieces of cooked liver, but not enough to do anything as demeaning as being obedient !! He was a real challenge, and over 2 years later, I still miss the old git to pieces
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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13-06-2010, 11:41 AM
Rate of reward is something many people - including those who train with treats can fail to understand

An example is the 'stay' training I do with Mia

I watch in classes people who have trained with treats but not fully enough, they ask too much, for the dog to stay too long in a strange situation with lots of distractions, then the dogs looses its confidence and breaks the stay, the dog is then punished for breaking the stay and put back. He is then LESS confident and wants to sneak back to his owner for reasurance

With Mia I put her in the position and rapid fired treats into her gob, she had no chance to get up. Then I released her - and all treats stoped
Again with a few pauses between the treats

She starts to realise that being in that position is GREAT, it is easy and clear for her to know what I am asking for her to do

Then I take a step back - and reward her before she gets the chance to move. Keep on adding distractions and rewarding lots
In no time you have a dog who is v happy to stay, distractions make them feel v happy because they have been rewarded for them. I can chuck treats on the floor as I run past my dogs waving my hands in the air and she lies there grinning up at me.

So the dogs you seen at shows MIGHT have just been at a stage in their training where this was a new distraction, lots of treats make walking nicely a good place to be

I do lots of nice lead walking with my pair, but there is a house where a couple of dogs often run up and bark at my pair.For the past couple of days I have rapid fire treated walking past the house (a few treats for every step) and now instead of looking to the house for the snarling dogs my pair look to me, we walk past the house without any treats but with happy dogs

It is something that people dont use often in their training. Treats are not just a reward, eating makes a dog happy, if in a situation they get food then that situation begins to make them happy - and you dont always need the food because the situation makes them happy (pavlov and his dogs drooling at the bell)
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Gnasher
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13-06-2010, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Rate of reward is something many people - including those who train with treats can fail to understand

An example is the 'stay' training I do with Mia

I watch in classes people who have trained with treats but not fully enough, they ask too much, for the dog to stay too long in a strange situation with lots of distractions, then the dogs looses its confidence and breaks the stay, the dog is then punished for breaking the stay and put back. He is then LESS confident and wants to sneak back to his owner for reasurance

With Mia I put her in the position and rapid fired treats into her gob, she had no chance to get up. Then I released her - and all treats stoped
Again with a few pauses between the treats

She starts to realise that being in that position is GREAT, it is easy and clear for her to know what I am asking for her to do

Then I take a step back - and reward her before she gets the chance to move. Keep on adding distractions and rewarding lots
In no time you have a dog who is v happy to stay, distractions make them feel v happy because they have been rewarded for them. I can chuck treats on the floor as I run past my dogs waving my hands in the air and she lies there grinning up at me.

So the dogs you seen at shows MIGHT have just been at a stage in their training where this was a new distraction, lots of treats make walking nicely a good place to be

I do lots of nice lead walking with my pair, but there is a house where a couple of dogs often run up and bark at my pair.For the past couple of days I have rapid fire treated walking past the house (a few treats for every step) and now instead of looking to the house for the snarling dogs my pair look to me, we walk past the house without any treats but with happy dogs

It is something that people dont use often in their training. Treats are not just a reward, eating makes a dog happy, if in a situation they get food then that situation begins to make them happy - and you dont always need the food because the situation makes them happy (pavlov and his dogs drooling at the bell)
I'm listening, but I'm sticking with my methods I think. Whatever method or methods we use, we need to be confident and happy in using them, and I am just not happy with the whole treat scene - mainly because I am such a forgetful old thing that I would never remember to make sure I always had the treats in my pocket before setting out. I like to keep things simple - I like to have a dog who is trustworthy off the lead in case I forget to take the lead. I like a dog who doesn't crap all over the pathway in case I forget to take my poo bags, and I like a dog who responds to a whistle because I always have that with me thanks to a gap in my front teeth. So even if I have laryngitis, I can call up my dog! I just don't like to have to rely on tools or props, I like to keep my life simple.

I have to say though I like Ben's distraction techniques vis a vis the barking dogs - I have a similar issues with chickens which sometimes have escaped out onto the set aside. An instant distraction of a piece of liver or some such might be better than terrorising the neighbourhood with my booming "No!! Leave!!"
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Pilgrim
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13-06-2010, 08:31 PM
My old goldie was attacked by a flatcoat as a pup, since then he hated all black dogs!

Like others have said this dog does not deserve to be pts however he MUST be kept on a lead until this behaviour is sorted out.

That means separate walks from the other dog and the use of a headcollar or whatever makes him controlable. Then she can work on helping him see black dogs as non threanening. I am a treat giver and would reward him for ignoring other dogs so he see black dogs as a means for getting a treat.

I have always used treats and my dogs are not puppets or tick tock dogs
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