Gnasher
I know what you mean about trying to keep your body laungage calm
I figured there was no way I can control myself that well
SO I taught Mia that me tensing up and the lead going tight is a cue to turn back to me for treats - I do it often when there are no dogs about so she dosent associate it her getting agressive
Works really well for her

It's a thought. I personally am dead against using treats for training purposes. However, with Tai we have a situation with one dog, he is not that bad with any other dog other than this black labrador. Extreme issues call for extreme measures, a good dog owner should never say never in my opinion, so perhaps Tai's love of Porky Scratchings can be put to good use here !

What do you have against using treats in training? That's really odd.

sounds like a good use for pork scratchings
I look at things like this as behaviour not training. If he starts to associate black lab with yummy treats then he will become happy when he sees him

Why odd? It is my own personal view, to which I am entitled. All the dogs I know who are treat-trained are constantly glued to their owner's side - not because they are so well-trained, so obedient, no, it is because they are constantly nadging for a treat. I like the fact that my dog chooses to remain reasonably close to me at all times because he is totally loyal and hates to be separated from me when we are out walking or biking. He will walk to heel, off lead, because I tell him to, not because I am constantly stuffing bits of food in his gob every time he obeys a command !

Yeah, I like the theory. However, you don't know Tai !! This behaviour is so out of character, so radical, that he would NEVER be happy when he sees the poor BL.

It's worth a try though, because nothing else has worked. I've got to get in quick though before the behaviour has started, else then I will just be rewarding it. It has got to be a distraction I think, and then becoming a reward because he hasn't kicked off. I will definitely try this should the occasion arise, thanks for the good suggestion!

No probs
Totaly you need to reward the sec he sees the nemisis, way before he thinks of reacting and keep him at a distance he is calm and happy
Then the distance he is happy with will reduce


Its a shame you havent seen better treat trainers in your area. My dogs like working with me, many times when I am training something new Ben is happy to get the treat because it says he got that bit right - but he isnt all that fussed about taking the treat and has even spat it out to get onto the next bit of the trick
Its more like a simbol between us that things are going the right way

as for the behaviour modification things I am just using the fact that the dogs are happy when they eat, so if something they used to hate is about when they get to eat then they start to feel happy when they see the old trigger

CAn't see the problem in using treats though I went to a training class where it was frowned upon and all the other dogs there were bored and demotivated whereas my dog was attentive and enjoying himself and motivated. I wouldn't go to work for nothing-I expect my wages at the end of the month! My dogs get rewards too for compliance-for Parker it is small pieces of treats and for Cherry it would be her ball which she loves.

Interestingly I have had owners say to me that my dog only obeys because it is being bribed but there is a difference between a bribe than a reward. I think they are jealous as the people who have said this to me have seen me recall my terrier in full flight after bunnies and he stops dead and flies straight back to me whereas they can't even get their dog to return to them when it is sniffing around a tree!

i cant believe your friend would consider, even for a second, of having her dog PTS over an issue like this. if i was in that position, i would have my dog on lead at all times (on a long line if it was quiet around the park or wherever i was) and, on a headcollar if he was too strong for me, and i would have him muzzled all the time when out (jake was attacked by a DA dog who was unmuzzled and broke his lead so i personally would always muzzle a DA dog if i was somewhere other dogs would be coz you never know what could happen). i would also find someone who had a black dog, and use the dog to desensitise my dog to them (obviously asking the owning first, and walking with them). i have never had to deal with a dog aggressive dog personally, but jake was a nightmare for lunging at other dogs due to the excitement of seeing them, and so i just walked him onlead near other dogs but not letting him meet so he learnt that he didnt have to meet every dog going and when he was getting to interested or fixated, i just told him to 'leave'. and now, he will look at other dogs but doesnt pull towards them or anything like that, he just happily trots by. so if i ever had to deal with a DA dog, i would try and resolve things using a similar idea, probably distracting him with a ball or something.

good post, i agree. i think there is a big difference between a reward and bribery.

I agree, there is a big difference between a bribe and a reward. It just seems to me that with the dogs I have seen, they are just totally fixated on the treat to the exclusion and all and everything else. I hate to see this, I don't want my dog to be constantly glued to my side, I want him to interact with other other dogs and have a great time, exactly as he does do. He chooses never to stray far from me because he doesn't want to, and if he does because he has been diverted by the enthralling pursuit of chasing a rabbit or a squirrel, a quick whistle from me brings him back to my side, where he gets verbal praise and a pat ... no treat, no food reward. But at the last couple of dog shows we have been to, I see many dogs glued to their owners' sides as they walk round the ring, gazing adoringly up at them as they are fed titbits. This is so wrong, it is turning the dog into a mindless performing puppet. My dog all the while we are walking around the ring is looking around him with interest, at the people, at the other dogs, all the while calmly and obediently walking beside me. He shows interest in the judge whilst doing what he is asked and what he is told ... all without any physical reward at all. I would much rather continue without the use of titbits at all, it just makes life for everyone so much simpler IMO, stops the dog getting fat and actually makes for a greater challenge - I personally think that it is taking a bit of a short cut, using treats. But I do entirely understand about the difference between a reward and a bribe, in an ambiguous kind of way!