f I had to pick one individual I followed more closely it would have been John Fisher----I trained my collie x retriever (rescue) entirely by his methods and he was fantastic and really happy and goey.

For agility I have picked and chosen,Kath Napper is a friend and she is brilliant---as is Eleanor Balchin.I learnt a lot from Steve Seale. I don't do agility at the moment but when I stay wth Kath I like to watch her sessions.

For obedience Jo Hill has some amazing innovative ideas and can read dogs fantastically well.

For HTM Attila and Jo Hill.

For assessing rescue dogs I will now cause dissention and say I liked Sue Sterberg a lot.Not to follow all her ideas blindly because, as she says, all places/people/circumstances are different. As a basis for assessment I liked it.

Discuss!!!

rune

I wholeheartedly agree that it's bad to advise someone to keep plugging away at something that isn't working. But even in discussion forums like this you realise that often, so called 'positive trainers' don't have any other strings to their bow. If used in conjunction with other approaches then positive training approaches work wonders - it's what we use with our dogs. The danger is in trusting people that think it's the be all and end all to blindly follow simplistic guidelines that are peddled in books, dog training courses and the internet. Some people act as if 'positive training' is a religion!

The trainers I worked with all suggested a different approach (akin to the kind of thing CM promotes) when they actually saw what was happening. This gave me faith in them - especially when it worked almost overnight!

There's always a whole list of 'maybe's' - maybe the technique wasn't used correctly, maybe the trainer was no good. And these are all potential flaws in ANY training method. Just because something doesn't work or causes problems for some dogs doesn't mean that the whole system/approach is bad.

But I think it's useful to share experiences of how various techniques/methods/approaches have backfired and caused problems. This can help others avoid similar problems.

A big factor in choosing an approach to follow will be how easily you're likely to be able to understand it and apply it. That will differ from person to person. One person might relate well to Victoria Stillwell and never run into problems using her methods. Another might have the same experience using Ceasar Millan's approach.

Once you've found something that works for you and your dogs it's plain sailing. But it helps others to avoid problems if they get to read about things that went wrong for them. I use a lot of CM's ideas and I find it useful to hear the 'anti's' slag him off. If there's anything that could go wrong you can be damn sure someone has flagged it up.

But people are less keen to air problems with positive training methods. It's as if it's sacrilege to concede that things can go badly wrong. When pushed many people will concede that things can go wrong but then quickly blame it on the owner. It doesn't matter if it's the owners fault, or down to a bad trainer. It's valuable to hear people's bad experiences with all popular training methods. It can help them to make the right choices for their dogs.

I've been using positive reward based training since 1964 when I was faced with training someone else's dog, who had been to a dog breaker. I had the help of a brilliant self taught guy, who worked out a way to train her without touching her.

It must have worked because she became the almost dog in Obedience, clocking up over 100 2nd places !

Since then I threw out my chokers & opted to train of flat collars & treats & toys & have been doing so ever since.

I don't really follow anyone's way of training as every dog is different as is every owner/handler. As long as the dogs actually enjoy doing the training & no force is involved then it's OK by me.

Way too many pet owners are stuck in past, doing what their parents, G parents etc did, because it works, but it doesn't work through understanding the dog, but by forcing the dog to do what it is told.

I may never win another class in Obedience with my dogs, TBH I don't care, I just enjoy working with my dogs & watching them learn.

Interesting thread, I must admit I like John Fisher's books but having been taking my dogs to training classes since 1954 most of my ideas are adaptations og training as I've worked with more & more dogs & trainers. I've had dogs I've punished & been none the worse for it & others who if I'd considered using the same method would I know have obeyed but would have ruined their confidence,& stopped them thinking for themselves..
Must say some of te comments about collars make me smile too. I work my dogs on a half check, if I put a long link check chain on my bitch, whether its clipped back or not she pulls into it as that is what she is used to wearing & pulling into in the breed ring, when I put a leather collar on her she immediately stops pulling.
Another thing I don't think people realise enough is that teaching a baby puppy, where you are working with a vertually blank canvas, is very different from teaching an older dog who already has conditioned responses like the one my bitch has to a metal collar.
Most interesting comment I've had from a trainer was at a breed specific club I go to who said do you want an obedience trained dog or an obedient dog as they are two different things.At the time I was puzzled, but I have come to see just what she meant.

Oops double post

Well said. I love clicker training and use it a lot both for my own dog and others - but I know not everyone gets on with it, and if they prefer not to use it, I still help them train, but without the clicker.
Can you say who he is out of interest?
I find classes with a mix of breeds in much more interesting, too. I love seeing small CKCS working with their owners as much as collies or other dogs, and it gives me as much satisfaction.
We used to have a CKCS in our working trials group in fact, and he was a little cracker!

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Believe me, that happens far more with using punishment based methods and aversives. Why do you think experienced positiv trainers simply don't use physical punishment in training? that is one of the reasons .

Most trainers have used lots of punishment in the past. I have, for one. Most of those I know also have.

We do know about it, ya know

Wys
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Google on Utube, "bad dog trainer" (cant link cos im at work)
It shows her building play drive through play. its cool, works well for mav

Exactly ... I believe in well trained dogs.

I am sure that is what we all want...

Wys
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Agree, it would be great if we could keep CM to the other thread

SG was here a few months ago, she held a seminar - think it was over 3 days? I didn't go though so unfortunately cant' comment much more.

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