Yes, I think the point is that firstly because people decided dogs are like wolves, they extrapolated the info they *thought* they knew about wolves, to dogs living with humans .

That was wrong as it turned out because not only do dogs have genetic and behavioural differences after many thousands of years of domestication, but the original wolf studies weren't quite right due to them being on captive wolves as mentioned.

So the first thing is that as science now knows the original studies were only the very beginning and not the end as science is always evolving regarding what we know, (and IMO dog owners should start to at least read about and accept, but to be fair there is little literature available at present
to bring up to date....)

and secondly dogs aren't wolves anyway, so they won't behave in exactly the same way regardless of wolf studies.

Wys
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Thanks Pidgey

Wys
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Quote:
He must NEVER growl or show aggression towards any young child, whatever the provocation. (Or adult for that matter)
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Part quote of Wys....
Can I ask why you think a dog should never ever growl?

If your dogs growled at you, would you punish them (and if so, how?) or would you ask yourself why they were doing it and try to solve the root of the problem?

Dogs are not humans and can't speak, therefore they do need to communicate with us.

If a dog growls that is several rungs on the ladder away from aggression - it's merely showing discomfort. If a dog is not allowed to growl when it feels uncomfortable then it may bite another time.

I wish this was more commonly understood by pet owners.

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C an I say, I think this part of what Wys says is very good, with regards to the top quote, I think you have to think very clearly, before making a rash decision.

ie....several months back one of my foster children ran to tell me that Reah had growlled at him as he tried to move her up on the settee.

So what do I do....that is a question to you all....do I think

1) go in the living room, drag the dog off the settee and give her a good hiding.

2) do I report to the Social Worker....I think this child must of done something to her

3) Do I scream and yell at the foster child and tell him, never touch the dog again.

4) Do I think ''why'' would she do that as she doesn't usually.

Fortunately I thought the latter, and took her to the vets, who found that her front leg (pinned) was giving her problems, so we were referred to the Specialist a Willows Referral, who sorted it out.

What I am trying to say is without the low growl, we haven't/didn't notice anything untoward.......

I am not sure if Reah must NEVER growl, whatever the provocation........we wouldn't of known till she was in servere discomfort, which would therefore mean, we are asking her to remain in pain in silence.....which I think is rather harsh

I think if a dog makes a habit of growling every time it feels uncomfortable, that isn't such a good thing. I wouldn't want one of mine growling willy nilly. However, a dog that growls occasionally, is not so bad. Like you say, it's just trying to communicate and so (as in Reah's case) was able to warn you of something that you needed to know. I have come across dogs that growl at kids. Okay, it's a warning but not really acceptable to growl every time a kid comes by I certainly would correct my dogs if they started to growl for no good reason on a regular basis

To a point maybe your right hun, but I was picking up the ''a dog should NEVER growl whatever the provocation.

My dogs run thier lives everyday all day with provocation, but the NEVER bit was what I wondered.

If you have ever read Reah's story, not just the major injuries, but the torture and abuse she suffered by human hands, I just thought by how the post read, surely you get a dog checked over first, not just expect it to never ever growl.
In Reah's case in 9 years she has come a long way, so I can safely say for her to growl, there has to be something wrong.

May I add something here about 'boundries' I don't even think the word 'boundaries' is appropriate in connection with dogs really, this is why...
Children can have boundaries, you say to a child if you do this thing there will be consequences/this thing will or won't happen . Children over three years old are cognisant, they have awareness of self and can (to some extent depending on age ) reason and understand about consequences of actions.

Dogs on the other hand have been found to be non cognisant and to have no self awareness.They can't look in a mirror and know that they are seeing themselves (I would assume they just see one of their own species which they are 'hard wired' to recognise for the purposes of reproduction).

Therefore if a dog doesn't have self awareness and is unable to reason, how can it stick to boundaries.

I believe I dog has a number of inherited traits and behaviours which are necessary for self preservation and the perpetuation of the species, seeking and guarding food scenting and recognising through sight/sound/scent/body language members of their own species . Also characteristics (some breed related) which predispose it to certain behaviour, these are things like chasing prey/guarding and a tendency to nervousness/boldness inherited from parents.

Over and above this I think dogs learn a behaviour through association of events/actions eg behaviour A = a reward in the form of pleasure /satisfaction and should be repeated, whereas behaviour B = no reward/on pleasure/no satisfaction should not be repeated. This is why socialisation of puppies is so important, before a natural wariness/fearfullness develops with age they should be introduced to as many things/situations as possible so that they learn through association that they are harmless and present no threat so they don't associate them with fear in the future.

To put it simply I think I would describe a dog's world as a series of snapshots of previous events/associations eg this picture (a person holding a treat/a lead/a dog bed) = pleasure, this picture (a man with a broom when a dog has previously been hit with a broom) = pain/fear . I think the latter example is a reason some dogs bite without warning , because a previous event/similar set of circumstances is associated in their mind with fear/pain and they have a natural need to defend themselves (the fight response).

So to go back to my original point, boundaries really require the ability to reason which I don't think dogs have .

Also the whole concept of 'Alpha' requires self awareness and the ability to reason which as previously stated, I don't think dogs have.

Great post...

I agree completey!!!!!!!!!

Well said there, yes - if she didn't feel confident enough in you as her owner to show discomfort by growling, several things may have happened, one of which could be that she coped with the pain until or if it became too much.

When she would be far more likely to revert straight to biting (or possibly snapping as another warning. However, most owners who would stop a dog from growling would be more likely to punish for snapping and the dog may or may not try this next step of the ladder out, before actually biting).

Hence, the worst that might happen is that the dog puts up with the pain quietly but then literally "snaps" and bites the child one day, and this is when it may appear to have happened right out of the blue.

Wys
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I haven't heard so much about Reah's past. I imagine it must be awful, from the bits you have said. Poor girl As always YS, you are on the ball with your dogs. You knew that something was wrong and Reah did a fab job of letting you know (clever girl that she is). I would be the same if one of my dogs growled at the kids. I'd investigate why that dog growled and would probably find a good reason for it, as did you. Was just saying that if one of mine started to growl all the time (say when a kid came near) for no good reason, I would have to address that, in case it progressed to a nip/bite, just to be on the safe side Hope Reah's leg is okay now, or at least on the mend

Thank you hun, I am sure Reah is saying thank you too. Unfortunately her 3 legs will never be on the mend, well two are better than the front one, which causes us problems every now and again, but it is holding up well and she lives a full happy life.

yes I agree if a dog kept growling then It's a worry, but then saying that, my sisters dog does with children under 8...(she has no children) so she rectifies that by being on the ball with her when children under 8 are about.
Here's a story that may give food for thought, I owned years ago a JRT who started to hate little girls and growled every single time when she saw one.

Well cause for worry i got to thinking that maybe it was because I had two boys......so we decided to try socailising her around little girls....supervised on lead

Imagin my surprise when this worked except for one little girl....who lived next door, so I stayed in the bedroom window one day and watched whilst she was outside.....there it was!!!!!!!! next doors little girl with a stick, poking her at every opportunity she got to tease.

That one action caused our JRT to hate little girls and growl at every little girl. Sometimes to investigate takes time, but it's abit like being a ''Miss Marple'' and is worth working backwards to get forwards.

I spoke to my neighbour and she had no idea her daughter was doing it, and immediately stopped it, which pleased our JRT no end but my ex hubby was talking about PTS long before we sorted out the problem and almost convinced me. I am so glad I didn't as we had her for a beautiful 18 years. with no problems once that was sorted