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View Poll Results: Which CM methods do you use on your dog?
Do you make sure your dog has enough exercise? 26 68.42%
Do you use "calm Energy" when handling your dogs? 7 18.42%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for attention? 1 2.63%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for correction? 0 0%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for attention 1 2.63%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for correction 1 2.63%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for attention 0 0%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for correction 0 0%
Do you use prong collars 0 0%
Do you use the illusion collar, or other NONslip slipcollar 0 0%
Have you ever used flooding to overcome your dogs fear 0 0%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the floor 1 2.63%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the fllor for any reason other than aggression 1 2.63%
Do you alpha roll your dog? 0 0%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Lionhound
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05-10-2009, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
We live in a society where obesity in children AND dogs is at epedemic levels. A huge percentage of children and dogs are suffering serious health problems, musculaskeletal problems and shortened lives because they don't get enough exercise. Doctors and vets go to great lengths to educate people about this problem and to encourage more healthy habits.

Yet it would seem that on discussion forums everywhere (not just Dogsey) people are handing out advice that flies in the face of current thinking. Call me a cynic, but I can't help but feel that people protest too much - could it be that these people are desparately trying to justify to themselves the fact that they aren't exercising their dogs adequately?

Firstly lets examine the notion that too much exercise will lead to injuries later in life. What is the mechanism for this - are the joints worn out by overuse perhaps? Absolutely not! The best thing you can do for joints (canine and human) is "move them every way every day".

Setting aside genetic problems for now, in simple terms joints are damaged as a result of the muscles failing to support them adequately. The most common cause of damaged joints is excess body fat and poor muscle tone. The most common cause of excess body fat and poor muscle tone is insufficient exercise. This is in both people and dogs.

So if your dog isn't already extremely well conditioned and lean the most important step you can take to keep him free from pain and enjoying a long and healthy life is to *give him more exercise*.

So where does this idea that exercise is bad for you come from? We hear people saying this when referring to both people and dogs. And why do the government spend millions of pounds educating the public to get more exercise if it's such a risky business?

Lets look again at the reason that joints are damaged - because the muscles fail to support them adequately. Lets assume that both you and your dog are somewhat portly and up until now your idea of exercise is a gently stroll. You are taking a very positive step towards longer life and better health if you both start to run instead of walking. However, as you have so much excess fat and weak little muscles with no endurance your joints aren't supported and the very act of running puts you at some risk. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't run. It just means that you start on a program of gradual improvement. For people taking up jogging/running the suggestion is to walk a little, run a little. Gradually you spend more time running and less time walking as your muscles (including your heart) strengthen. The same applies to dogs. If you are able to run fast enough to give your dog a good enough workout for his current fitness levels then running with him will be good enough. If not you have to consider letting your dog run alone (will he do it? can he do it safely?) or else find a way to get yourself up to his level (e.g. use a bike, a skateboard, a scooter or roller blades). Just common sense really - and using your imagination to find ways to give your dog what it needs.

But what about all the stories of sporting dogs suffering injuries? These are dogs that have been engaging in sport for some time. Why are they getting injured? The main reason is failure to condition the dogs for their sport/work. Anyone that's been involved in sport themselves will have heard the expression "Get fit for your sport - don't do your sport to get fit". If you don't specifically work on conditioning for that sport you are asking for trouble. Very many agility dogs that are at the top of their game aren't adequately conditioned for their sport. A dog that only does agility is very likely to develop muscle imbalances that can lead to serious joint problems. Doing a sport as a way of getting fit is better than doing nothing. But if you don't do things properly and work hard on conditioning you are at risk of injury - if not now then later in life.

The group of athletes (both canine and human) that are at least risk of injury are those that work very hard on conditioning and place safety and long term benefits over winning and short term glory. Dogs in this category can run for miles with less risk of injury and joint damage than your average pooch has getting out of bed in the morning! This is the goal if you want your dog to have a long, happy and healthy life. There's a very good article here that gives guidelines on how to go about achiving this (if you really care about your dog's welfare then don't skip over this link - please do read as it has some very good advice):

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0A...eGh4OGM1&hl=en

One bit I do think is relevent to quote is this :



Variety is the key - again in both humans and dogs. The more activities the better!
Professional footballers are prone to joint problems later in life eg osteo arthritis which is solely down to over use of their joints.
scarter
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05-10-2009, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
Professional footballers are prone to joint problems later in life eg osteo arthritis which is solely down to over use of their joints.
No, it's not due to over use of their joints. It's down to the muscles not supporting the joints as they should. This can be for a variety of reasons such as:

1. Over-specilisaton - this occurs when an athlete repeats a movement over and over to the point where the muscles and nervous system are optimised for performing that action. Muscles work in agonist/antagonist pairs and it's important that the balance between each pair and each muscle group is maintained. Athletes that over-specialise train their bodies to do a specific task (kicking for example) exceptionally well but in doing so they upset the balance between muscle groups and between agonist/antagonist pairs. Now imagine a joint supported by an agonist/antagonist pair. If the balance is correct the joint will move normally. If you over stretch that agonist and over strengthon the antagonist (or vise versa) the joint will not move normally and in time abnormal wear will occur.

In the canine world this type of thing is common in agility, flyball, disc dogs etc. IF their owners don't take care to cross train them and condition them properly.

2. Compensation due to injury - this occurs when an athlete injures a muscle and continues to compete/train before it's fully healed. The body compensates to avoid pain by using other muscles to help do the work of the injured muscle (or in the case of injured ligaments, broken bones etc muscles are recruited to take the strain of the injured body part). Sometimes you get away with this and the body starts working correctly as soon as the injury is fully healed. But often the body gets so used to these compensatory movement patterns that it holds onto them long after the injury has healed. The mechanism for subsequent joint problems is the same as outlined above. The muscles aren't working the way they are supposed to and as a result abnormal loads are placed on the joints.

This is common in dogs that are involved in competetive sports. Their owners don't want to miss out on an important competition so there is always the temptation to patch the dog up with a bit of physio and have him compete through the injury.

But as I said in my post, it's not 'too much exercise' that causes the problem, but rather lack of knowledge about conditioning and safe training practices. Competition can tempt people to do things that aren't in the dogs best interest. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm against competetive canine sport (aside from fun competition) but I don't do it with my dogs simply because I feel there is pressure to 'not let the side down'. I like to feel free to pull my dog out on a whim if there's anything at all I'm not happy about. Particularly difficult in team sports!

It all sounds complicated, but the bottom line is that if you do LOTS of activities with your dog and don't get obsessive about any of them then your dog will probably be very well conditioned and will have the best possible chance of avoiding injury. He'll have every chance of a longer, healthier, active life well into old age than the average under exercised pooch. A good combination of activities includes swimming, running (on lots of different terrains), cycling, HWTM/tricks (to move all the joints in lots of ways), long hikes, short sprints, intervals (i.e lots of short sprints with jogging in between).
Promethean
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05-10-2009, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear View Post
what happened to jonbee??
He was too aggressive for the couple and they gave him away.
cordie
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05-10-2009, 11:44 PM
we have already established that the owners on cm prog are beyond normal training , these are dogs on last chance, so why do you keep harping on about positive training and clicker training!!!! this does not apply, these dogs are a heartbeat away from being put to sleep, because of faulty human training or indeed lack of training full stop. come on ladies and gents, sorry , but when push comes to shove , im on the side of the dogs, !!!why should they suffer cos they drew the short straw?wether or not you like the bloke is immaterial, the result is , the dogs are in a win , win situation, if you are a dog lover, then you will be satisfied at the outcome of the situation, if not, you have to revaluate, n rethink your position !!
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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06-10-2009, 12:27 AM
To me everything is just trick training
I am using clicker training to make Mia happy around Storm again and happy to be in the park
I am just off to look at a venue tommorow to do a reactive dog class for Mia and a couple of my friends

Teaching my dogs to settle and be calm, teaching them to walk on their back legs, teaching them to do agility, teaching them to come back when called, teaching them to drop stinky rotten meat, its either all tricks or none of it at all
Its just about figuring out what the dog wants or dosent want and then making what you want become more rewarding to them
Promethean
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06-10-2009, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by cordie View Post
we have already established that the owners on cm prog are beyond normal training , these are dogs on last chance, so why do you keep harping on about positive training and clicker training!!!! this does not apply, these dogs are a heartbeat away from being put to sleep, because of faulty human training or indeed lack of training full stop. come on ladies and gents, sorry , but when push comes to shove , im on the side of the dogs, !!!why should they suffer cos they drew the short straw?wether or not you like the bloke is immaterial, the result is , the dogs are in a win , win situation, if you are a dog lover, then you will be satisfied at the outcome of the situation, if not, you have to revaluate, n rethink your position !!

Why wouldn't it? Because you say so? These dogs are not beyond normal training (whatever that means), they simply have not been trained.

Last chance? No, last chance is only as last as the lazy people who wish it. A few days ago I saw an episode and the people said something like: "We went to a trainer and he told us we had work on it for 9 months"* and that was it. From the way he said it, my impression is that they didn't do it. These people were too damn lazy to properly rehabilitate the dog, instead they wanted a quick suppress the barking and a few kicks, pins and jabs from CM did that. This dog wasn't in danger of being killed, but instead of taking the time to properly train it, she is now condemned to suffering MIllan's methods for the rest of her life.

Despite your proclamation, few of the dogs showcased in DW are in danger of being euthanized. So there is no reason to apply methods that truly work at addressing the emotional response of the dog; not just suppressing the behavior. Your arguments fails on both points.

There are a number of dogs that CM cured and ended up being given away or dead. And in the cases that he does "succeed" he condemns the dog to a lifetime of kicks and jabs and pins ("leadership" in Millanese). What's worse for the owners is that they are left with the impression that they have to act like prison guards 24/7 because as Millan puts it, even a moment of weakness will kill you.

I have 3 dogs that are trained. They are trained in other things too, like attacking and fighting a human being. Having faced of with them (in a bite suit of course) I know that they could likely kill me in an attack.

Despite this, I don't worry about showing weakness (WTF) which in his world even means feeling sad, or grieving a death. Why the F&* would he want to be with animals so hell bent on taking over and who pose such a danger to him and others?
Patch
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06-10-2009, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
In the canine world this type of thing is common in agility, flyball, disc dogs etc. IF their owners don't take care to cross train them and condition them properly.

As it goes sprains and strains in Agility and Flyball dogs are usually through not warming them up properly immediately before training or competing. Also these dogs should not be over trained within their sport, too much can and does cause inflammation, pain, sprains, stiffness, lameness etc, that is not about over all fitness and stamina but the potential for repetitive pounding from take off, landing, bending for weave`s, and the climbing and descending on the contact equipment, if doing too much too often.
Wysiwyg
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06-10-2009, 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by cava14una View Post
I so agree with that, my greatest achievement is teaching Zymi my working lines Beardie to settle
Quite an achievement I suspect

Wys
x
lilypup
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06-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by cordie View Post
we have already established that the owners on cm prog are beyond normal training , these are dogs on last chance, so why do you keep harping on about positive training and clicker training!!!! this does not apply, these dogs are a heartbeat away from being put to sleep, because of faulty human training or indeed lack of training full stop. come on ladies and gents, sorry , but when push comes to shove , im on the side of the dogs, !!!why should they suffer cos they drew the short straw?wether or not you like the bloke is immaterial, the result is , the dogs are in a win , win situation, if you are a dog lover, then you will be satisfied at the outcome of the situation, if not, you have to revaluate, n rethink your position !!
i'm sorry but i have to correct you on this. my border collie was probably 'a heartbeat' away from being pts when i got him, due to his dog aggression and other difficult issues. i am his 5th (and final) owner so many had given up on him before.

i have never used anything but positive training methods and he actually played with another dog the other day. ok, it may have taken us 6 years to get there but i've watched similar cases to his being handled by cm. that treatment would have destroyed dylan. his mental state was fragile enough without having to go through any type of dominance style training.

those dogs on dw are not in a win win situation. they, as others have pointed out, quite often continue with worse behavioural problems than they had before cm worked his 'magic' on them.
Tupacs2legs
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06-10-2009, 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by cordie View Post
we have already established that the owners on cm prog are beyond normal training , these are dogs on last chance, so why do you keep harping on about positive training and clicker training!!!! this does not apply, these dogs are a heartbeat away from being put to sleep, because of faulty human training or indeed lack of training full stop. come on ladies and gents, sorry , but when push comes to shove , im on the side of the dogs, !!!why should they suffer cos they drew the short straw?wether or not you like the bloke is immaterial, the result is , the dogs are in a win , win situation, if you are a dog lover, then you will be satisfied at the outcome of the situation, if not, you have to revaluate, n rethink your position !!
hi
so you are telling me that these owners have tried everything and their last resort is to appear on tv?
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